[sportsaw]

I like Stoicism and have read many books on topic. Stoicism provides me with mental tricks to think more positively and be more resilient. However, there are some presuppositions that underlie the philosophy that must be take on faith. “Lead a virtuous life,” for one. But why? What’s the difference if I do not live virtuously? As an Atheist I suppose I do look for these answers in part because I have not accepted the answers from religion. Perhaps Stoicism never claimed to provide a deeper meaning to life, and if one goes in without that expectation one will likely be less prone to disappointment.

[TriNetra]

I think couple of things can be observed to support living virtuously without needing to resort to invoking any supernatural cause:

1. Observe a fundamental law of nature: Whatever we give to the nature is what nature grows and gives us back in many times over. We give seed to earth it gives back us a full fledged plant. We genuinely appreciate people and spread happiness in return we receive the same.

2. Observe our conscience: Even though you can denounce religion and God but at least we experience and listen to our conscience, inner voice regularly. Not sure how much modern psychology has done research over this stuff but at least in yogic circles it's been extensively covered as a fact that the more you abide by virtues in your thoughts, speech and conduct, the more calmer, peaceful and contented you will be (lesser inner conflict/clear conscience etc.) And that's fundamental to lasting happiness

[sportsaw]

To me #1 sounds like an appeal to nature without basis. It sounds a little like “The Secret”—positive actions have positive reactions—which I haven’t seen evidence of sufficiently to make a law of.

I don’t know what “listen to our conscience, inner voice regularly” or “abide by virtues in your thoughts“ mean.

[TriNetra]

Regarding the conscience, it's blabbering of the mind. while you're busy in some activity you may not notice it, but it's there in your subconscious. To observe it, just sit for few minutes and try to see thoughts originating in mind. This constant chatter, which may include grudges, guilt, complaints, fear, phobia, jealousy, envy , worries etc. are emotions that spring up when we're too focused on ourselves in our life. The virtuous, kind actions that we do for others help in expanding our consciousness; our prospective toward life changes and consequently the self-obsession decreases resulting in greater inner peace, calm and contentment.

[wideasleep1]

I may have an incorrect take on the virtue concept, vis-a-vis Stoicism, but felt it was more to do with reducing man's conflict with nature, learning to live within his and its means, as 'virtue'...not the 'just be great to one another' type of virtue. While there is a strong current of social interactions in Stoicism, it mainly lies with treating others as equals on this journey, and not manufacturing enemies out of thin air. I have had a few polite conversations head south in a hurry, with absolutely no malice in my words, that were simply manifestations of the listeners over-reactive imaginations. Hell, I once became someone's enemy, simply by NOT responding at all, or even acknowledging his presence. These were revelatory examples for me, because I had to retrace what could have transpired in my words or tone to evoke such a response, arriving at the conclusion: People can and will manufacture their own barriers and enemies, out of thin air, in order to cope with some dissonance they perceive. Sometimes, the problem is not you.

[maroonblazer]

>“Lead a virtuous life,” for one. But why?

Back then - 300 BCE - I could imagine that not leading a virtuous life had much higher costs than they do today, where modern cities and technology afford a measure of anonymity, for better or worse.

Still, studies of happiness and well-being seem to show that acts of kindness and generosity lead to higher self-reported happiness. So, there's one answer to "why?".

[kashyapc]

Why "lead a virtuous life?" To build stable and lasting joy that is not subject to the whims of Fortune or chance events. (I'm assuming you value this kind of joy.)

A few choice quotes below. These two are from the introduction to Seneca's Letters on Ethics (which I mentioned earlier up-thread):

• "In a word, Senecan joy comes from within, from a good person's own character and conduct: it arises from goodness itself and from right actions that one performs. This means that joy will not always be a matter of smiles, and laughter, for good actions may be difficult and unpleasant. A good person does these actions only when they are right, and only for that reason, but the doing itself is a good, and a reason to rejoice."

The above is also phrased as: "The reward for right action is having acted rightly."

• "Realizing that chance events lie beyond your control, the Stoic will find it unnecessary to experience grief, anger, fear, or even hope—all these are characteristics of a mind that waits in suspense, awestruck by things indifferent. We can have a life that truly involves joy (of the right sort) if we appreciate that the most precious thing of all ], and the only truly precious thing. lies within our control at all times."

And to quote from my favorite Stoic, Epictetus (this is from A.A. Long's exegesis on Epictetus):

• "Epictetus diagnoses unhappiness as subservience to persons, happenings, values, and bodily conditions, all of which involve the individual subject in surrendering autonomy and becoming a victim of debilitating emotions. Happiness, by contrast, is unimpededness, doing and experiencing only what you want to do and experience, serenity, absence of any sense that things might be better for you than you find them to be."

[sportsaw]

But the Stoics put a stake in the ground about what is virtuous. Doing so definitely has utility to society, but it has no more of a claim to being “correct” than a spider’s idea of a virtuous life: “eat flies and sometimes your offspring,” or whatever.

[vincentmarle]

To understand virtue and why it’s important to Stoics, you need to understand its little brother, sacrifice. Sacrifice is the act of doing something, with the expectation of something in return. Sacrifice is therefore transactional, and a form of deferred gratification.

- You study hard to get good grades.

- You show up at work on time to keep your job

Virtue is simply sacrifice without expectation of any reward or gratification. And since a reward (or gratification) is a form of external validation, something a true Stoic tries to avoid at any cost, virtue is the only option left.

- You study hard because being educated is important.

- You show up at work because it is important to be a productive member of society.