[godelski]

I may be off base here, but it sounds to me like you just aren't interested in the subjects. One of the biggest factors to learning is how much interest you have. There are tricks you can do to get yourself more interested, but it does take a fair amount of work and isn't always effective. But if you wonder why sometimes we can remember silly details or whole complicated plotlines from stories but can't remember a simple math formula, a lot of it is actually your interest levels. Your brain prioritizes the stories because it is interesting, you can relate, and thus form strong neural connections. It is much harder to do that with a math equation that is fairly abstract and not in constant use.

So I would start at finding which thing interests you the most. What meets the job criteria that you are looking for BUT also excites you? Then focus on moving in that direction.

[t-writescode]

I think you hit the nail on the head here. This person tries to get us to believe they're stupid; but, if they believe that themselves, truly, then they're going to create self-fulfilling prophecies. They need to find something they're interested in to work on every day. 8 hours is a long time each day to be doing something, it's better if you're interested in it, so that at least some of those hours are fun.

And I will say, and I have often repeated that software development, programming, is a horrible job if you don't love it. Programming sucks if you don't enjoy it. It's too much thinking, too much abstracting, too much typing, too many meetings, and horribly, horribly boring - unless it's your thing, and then it's not.

OP, don't force it to be your thing if it's not your thing.

You may also have some depression. It may genuinely be worth seeing someone about that to help you navigate it and grow and cope with it. Depression is horrible, and any step that can be done to help yourself through it is a huge win for your own peace.

[Mirioron]

Here's the question that inevitably pops up from this: what do you do if nothing interests you in this way?

There are interesting things, sure, but those are usually fleeting. You'll be interested in something for a month or two and then lose interest in it. You can't earn a living on that. What do you do then?

[aidenn0]

A while back, I overheard a coworker of mine was complaining about a cousin that was couch-surfing his way through relatives, not getting a job, just playing video games all day and moving on to a different relative or friend after getting kicked out of the last place he stayed.

The coworker and the person he was talking to were both very confused by how anyone could ever want to live that way. I had a very different reaction: if I had been aware that this was an option when I was 22, I totally would have done that, but I just never considered it as a possibility.

Even almost 20 years later it still sounds like a great life, other than the soul-crushing guilt and shame I would feel...

[jirdperson]

Did he actually enjoy living that way? To me, that sounds like the result of having no real options and playing video games constantly to avoid facing that reality...

[craftinator]

> To me, that sounds like the result of having no real options and playing video games constantly to avoid facing that reality...

I think that is the point of the parent comment. Some people think it is horrible, like a result of having no options, and some people think it is ideal! Personally, I would go crazy without deadlines hanging over my head and lots of resources to tackle those deadlines with.

[wolco]

A lot of people at age 22 live with their parents and play video games or do whatever.

[duxup]

At least as far as jobs go, there are plenty of jobs you can do ok with ... and not actually be interested in it.

Programming is just a really hard one to do if you're not interested, possibly only because of the number of people who ARE interested (or at least some point were and they got to the point they could actually just surf along).

[probably_wrong]

According to my father, the business world in my country is currently experiencing difficulties finding talent because, in the words of his bosses, "young people today are too soft and quit when things get slightly difficult".

While there are many other factors here that I don't want to get into (such as loyalty being a two-way street and so on), I often wonder whether the idea of "this is not a hobby, it's a job" might have a bit of truth in it. At the end of the day, honest work is better than no work, and we all have to be adults at some point at start pulling our weight.

Would I prefer everyone to have UBI and work only if they want to? Definitely. But not everyone can be passionate about what they do (is anyone really passionate about packing items for Amazon?) and I guess sometimes you draw the short stick.

[friendlybus]

I grew up doing everything the hard way, self taught holding my own with highly educated peers and spending years on very hard problems to build a future worth having.

I am still doing it the hard way but vastly preferring doing it for myself, instead of for ungrateful bosses that pay penny on the dollar for the privilege to ignore their employees and only ever do something to fix unfulfilled promises when people have already been burnt and it’s too late. I’ve heard again and again from peers that bosses only come round to shitty situations when good working employees threaten to leave and by then it’s too late.

This time it’s the bosses drawing the short stick and they are complaining like they are entitled to employees. You want people to stay? Make it happen, don’t whine.

I have been in management, I know what it takes. Man up.

[ProZsolt]

> is anyone really passionate about packing items for Amazon?

Yes, you can! At least for a short time. I went to New Zealand on a working holiday visa. I did a lot of odd jobs there. I did fruit picking for about one month. First I thought it will be boring, but it turned out really satisfying. You can start optimizing each step of the process, shave down a few seconds here and there, finding better ways to do things. In the end, me and my girlfriend were in the top 5 five with some Japanese people (they are crazy fast), and on average we picked and packed 2-3 times more than the average.

I just want to point out some seemingly boring jobs can be satisfying.

I read a lot of horror stories about Amazon. It won't work with the current way, but that is a good thing. Amazon will have to upper their workplace standard otherwise nobody going to work there.

[kaybe]

You know, I'm reminded of the way the CCC conferences are run. Basically, everything (except the toilet cleaners I think) is done by volunteers (aka the people visiting the conferences). I think usually about a third of the attendants do at least a little bit.

You just sign up in the system and choose a shift. Some jobs need an introduction and your account is cleared for them once you attended. If you meet a certain amount of shifts worked you get a t-shirt and preference at next-year-ticket purchases.

What you usually see is even the people with the menial jobs getting really into them as well. The ushers will experiment with new routing to make it faster, the people running the checkroom will optimize the hell out of it and have a competition with the next shift.. it's good fun.

This works because a) they want the whole endeavor to be a success, b) they are allowed to freely fulfill the roles and experiment, c) nobody in particular and everyone in total profits from the work done, d) you can pick up one shift or 20, it's up to you and surely a couple more.

I think it is possible to be passionate about packaging items for sure, but not like this. So I wouldn't say it's impossible to run society with UBI, but it will have to look quite different.

[growlist]

An older colleague of mine a few years back used to come out with some philosophical pearls of wisdom from time to time for us young'uns. I remember him saying once: 'Of course it's not going to be easy all the time - that's why they call it work'.

[notduncansmith]

That sounds like a job for a mental health specialist. There are psychological reasons underlying the initial interests and the subsequent fading of interest, and the right specialist will be able to identify those and use them to guide you down the path to sticking to something.

[prostheticvamp]

Speaking as a mental health specialist:

No that is not. We treat disease. Pretending we can fine-tune personality traits is quackery, and no respectable mental health specialist would lay claim to that.

But don’t worry - quacks abound, and they even take your insurance.

[t-writescode]

I was more thinking that not finding enjoyment in anything would be indicative of depression and that would be something that a mental health specialist can help a person navigate.

[jawns]

I think most people have a capacity for introspection, but some need more direction than others to actually do it and connect the dots. So maybe a core personality trait is largely unchangeable, but being able to recognize its existence and zero in on how it is affecting your life can lead to some real breakthroughs.

I don't know if the best person to help someone through this process of introspection is a psychologist or a life coach or a spiritual director or a teacher or a stranger in a coffee shop, but it seems like there's a place for it somewhere.

[irishcoffee]

How does one go about identifying a non-quack in your field? I’m in the market and I’ve been disappointed with the 2 I’ve seen...

[andrewnc]

My wife is a therapist, her suggestion is to go call up the largest local University and talk to folks in their psych department for recommendations.

They're usually much more science driven and grounded.

[Mirioron]

To be fair though, a part of ADHD can manifest itself this way. From what I've read it's a pretty common complaint that people with ADHD have trouble doing things they're not interested in. In a lot of those cases you also hear about how their interests change all the time.

[kls]

Not really enough information to base a diagnosis on and not that I would be qualified to do so, but the thought certainly crossed my mind that the poster might consider being tested. Lack of interest and lack of maintained interest is certainly in the realm of possibility. Unlike other psychotropic meds, ADHD meds have a fairly high success rate and a rapid onset of effective treatment. Pretty much with one dose a person can tell if they are going to work for them or not. For most that suffer it's like night and day.

[enitihas]

I am not really sure a mental health specialist can help you if nothing interests you. It's difficult to imagine every human being having interest in making something. A lot of people may just want to live a chill life.

Unfortunately, UBI is very far away, so whether something interests you or not, you got to pick up the least worst choice and get on with it.

[maps7]

I'd find it more strange if something did interest people for over 40/50 years. Trains for example - that's a long time to be interested in trains!

[dusted]

This.

I recall clearly how amazing mini quadcopters were to me! I bought some, I wrote 3D models and designed my own 3D printable chassis, I even made one from ground up, with FPV camera and all! I built and flew (until destruction) maybe 20 or 25 quads, it was all I did, all day, for 2 months. Now there's a box of spare parts and unfinished related projects that I won't touch before the day I decide to throw it all in the big "electronics junk" bin for use in future projects.

[franl]

What you did sounds amazing! Yet I’m getting a tone from your comment that reveals some kind of disappointment in yourself. Reminds me of this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22792829. Check out the book mentioned in the top comment (Refuse to Choose), it may resonate with you. It certainly resonated with me after reading it recently.

[trwhite]

This is a really interesting question and I'd love to know what other people think of it.

I think you have to constantly be reading and learning about things on your periphery. It can take a long time before your interest in something is strong enough to decide to do it for a living.

[dhruvkar]

interest <-> spending time on something

these feed off of each other. No one is born liking spreadsheets or birthing or insects or woodworking.

when you're young, spend time immersed in different things. some will naturally fit better than others, and you'll see possibilities open up. not everyone has that luxury, however.

[IkmoIkmo]

I mean, yes, that's possible, it's also possible there are some cognitive limitations that have a substantial impact. I've certainly breezed through a lot of things in school and work that I thought was boring, that others struggled with. I'm far from a genius, perhaps in the smartest 25% quartile, that's all. But we shouldn't discount the fact that there'll be some in the least 25% quartile who have different experiences, regardless of their interest level.

Yes, perseverance really matters, and that comes either from interest or grit. But it's not always enough. It can be a lot of fun practising guitar for 8 hours a day if, after a few months, you feel you're making some progress. It's not fun, if even after a few months of long hours of practice, you forgot the concepts from the beginning. Passion only goes so far, we shouldn't romanticise failure too much. Sometimes it just isn't a good fit and sometimes that's because of limitations.

That having been said, not trying to dismiss your point, it could very well be that the person is intellectually capable enough, but just doesn't think programming is fun. But I wouldn't take that as a given and in all honestly, it doesn't seem like the most likely case either.

[throwaway88p]

I don't think I'm stupid, but I do believe that most people have a sort of "ceiling" in regards to their capabilities, intellectual or otherwise. I'm mostly curious about what to do when those something they're interested in's fall outside of your capability.

[ci5er]

This is interesting to me. I used to be very "into" agent-based computation economics - trying to synthesize macro from micro. And small-worlds neetworks and the intersection, and a a fair amount of systems biology.

After a blow to the head that caused some noticable brain damage and loss of IQ points, I'm still interested, but it's a LOT harder! I remember thinking much vaster thoughts than I can think now.

Which sucks, actually. But I don't actually know what I can and cannot do, or what I am not willing to work hard enough to achieve, because before, I didn't ever have to work for it, you know?

Programming itself, though, say Genetic Programming or embedded systems for video codec for satellites or the such is still simple enough, so I guess I should be grateful for that! :-)

[t-writescode]

When it comes to recognizing patterns in programming and such, I have a couple questions:

* did you ever go to college for programming? if not, a lot of the 'patterns' people see were beaten into their heads in college, so that's something that can be helped :)

* have you ever done competitive programming, like TopCoder problems (the old ones. Last I checked, TopCoder has gotten WAY over my head and probably a lot of other people's heads, too)?

Doing programming problems can be a great way to flex those muscles and see common patterns in code and problems you need to solve. It might be able to really help you :)

Topcoder is the one a lot of people know, but there's others out there. I kinda liked this one, and it's used as a recruiting tool, too: https://app.codility.com/programmers/

[throwaway88p]

Never went to school, i did have an brief experience with competitive programming back in HS, but didn't do very well.

[t-writescode]

Oh! Well then there you go! Let's get you sitting down and doing algorithm stuff! It may help you a ton! Honestly, it's a lot of boring stuff, but the idea is to get your brain thinking in a different way :)

[bachmeier]

You wrote "writing and maintaining simple CRUD apps, and to be honest I hate it. Its mind numbingly boring and I certainly dont want to spend my life doing that".

This has nothing to do with hitting the ceiling of your capabilities. You don't like the things you're doing. I don't even see any reason to say you don't like programming, just that you don't like what you're doing now.

[thaumasiotes]

> You wrote "writing and maintaining simple CRUD apps, and to be honest I hate it. Its mind numbingly boring and I certainly dont want to spend my life doing that".

> This has nothing to do with hitting the ceiling of your capabilities.

He also wrote "I fail to understand, fail to recognize patterns, am too slow to understand simple concepts and never retain anything. Occasionally understand the individual concepts of something but then her completely lost when they're all combined in some applied method."

[bachmeier]

That follows from the part I quoted. It would be very unusual for someone to be good at a task they know they don't want to do and that they find mind numbingly boring.

[thaumasiotes]

No it wouldn't. That's the entire concept of working on an assembly line.

Whether you're good at something is not strongly related to whether you like doing it.

[liendolucas]

> have a sort of "ceiling" in regards to their capabilities, intellectual or otherwise.

I refuse to believe that. It depends how much motivation, discipline and perseverance you have. The human mind is capable of anything! If there's something that you think it falls your capacity is because you haven't put considerable effort on the task that you're trying to achieve. And if you think you have set a truly high bar, then try achieving less intimidating tasks, even if you aren't successful for the original task you've set for the learning journey can even be more rewarding.

[swiftcoder]

Outside an actual developmental disorder, I wouldn't really agree with this statement. Engineering is certainly easier for some people than for others, but the ones to whom it comes easy don't always make the best engineers. I've known several successful engineers who really struggled in the early stages of their education/career, but stuck it out through some combination of drive and stubbornness.

[t-writescode]

And they're way better at the get-stuff-done style of the world.

I'm one of those people who doesn't have trouble understanding things, but a LOT of trouble doing things and I look at the people that have the grit to just push forward and man, I envy their work ethic and focus. It's incredible, truly, how it seems like they can just keep plowing through rough stuff and come out with a solution that works.

It may not be the pie-in-the-sky prettiest; but, it works. It works well enough; and, if you're at a small company, it may have literally saved your business.

[elijahparker]

I would strongly agree with this — learning and retention for me come easily when I’m interested, but are near impossible when I feel it’s irrelevant or I’m just not interested. Whether or not I’m gifted in something I’m interested in doesn’t really matter (and my suggestion is to not worry about this) since my interest gives me the perseverance and patience to learn and do well regardless of innate skill.

[benkoller]

I'd second that, somewhat. The things I'd consider myself to be good at are the things I care about. I can still quite clearly distinguish between personal and "business" interests, and don't feel a blurriness between both if I do not want them to blurr, but it is the one thing that has helped me (apart from being at the right time at the right place) to progress in my career.

What I'd take away from what both godelski and me are saying (if I were you): Find topics that sound interesting to you, dig your heels in, learn about those, play with the concepts. 9 times out of 10 something will come out of it, and if its just yourself understanding better what you're actually looking for.

[farias0]

Yeah, I guess the real question here is "do you love programming?" If you do you can make it work, it's a matter of not giving up and instead tweaking your learning system, practicing more and better, etc. If you don't you need to find another area.

Programming is a very demanding trade, and I don't think you can do it just for the paycheck, you need to have some degree of passion for it. If someone disagrees with me about this I'd love to hear different takes.

[WnZ39p0Dgydaz1]

> Programming is a very demanding trade, and I don't think you can do it just for the paycheck, you need to have some degree of passion for it. If someone disagrees with me about this I'd love to hear different takes.

Consider that many people out there are doing repetitive and demanding physical labor "just for the paycheck". I'm sure those people would love to trade with someone who is sitting at the desk for 8 hours and earning 4-5x the amount, even if they had to do nothing but pressing the same button the whole time.

[pengaru]

> Programming is a very demanding trade, and I don't think you can do it just for the paycheck, you need to have some degree of passion for it. If someone disagrees with me about this I'd love to hear different takes.

There are more people writing programs as a daily grind for a paycheck than as passionate artisans practicing their craft, and it's only getting more so as "CS" becomes an increasingly blue-collar field.

What you said strikes me as a rather dated view of programming. It was certainly more true back when just to operate a computer required significant resources, skill, and perseverance. It used to be such a horribly tedious, time-consuming chore to program them, that it often required something like passionate interest to stick it through.

[4RRLxFWs]

Not sure what you're disagreeing with. I don't think the person you're responding to thinks it's /impossible to get a gig as a programmer for a while, but that it's not going to yield a fulfilling career if one is merely chasing a paycheck. I think that's about right.

[pessimizer]

> Programming is a very demanding trade, and I don't think you can do it just for the paycheck, you need to have some degree of passion for it. If someone disagrees with me about this I'd love to hear different takes.

I don't have any different abstract or psychological take on it, I just know people who have programmed for 30 years who don't love it now, and some who never loved it and always wished they were doing something more interesting. They are also perfectly good programmers, who work because they get paid for it rather than some spiritual edification.

[4RRLxFWs]

Agreed.

Another factor, though, is that the interest generated from programming can be related to the thing a person is working on. A crescent wrench would be a boring object if all you did was wack it against the ground. But if it becomes a critical feature in constructing something, one probably acquires an interest. I can say that there are many things within this general field of playing-with-computers that I have previously found uninteresting, and now am quite fascinated about, but only because I've found uses. I've also been painfully unenthusiastic about some assigned work.

I'd also find it unlikely that humans in general are not interested in "making things," and insofar as programming/software is a vehicle for this, do possess an intrinsic potential to explore the field and acquire an interest. But the field rewards the independent-minded, as it's mostly through your own work, on your own projects, that generate a lasting interest (I believe).

[Sammi]

Disagree. "Do you love programming" is as useless a question as "do you love digging". Loving to dig holes is not a good nor sufficient reason to dig holes all day every day. It just ends up being Sisyphean and pointless.

You need a reason to do things. A problem to solve, because people are problem solving machines. We make up problems if we don't have any at hand. Games are made up problems. But making things better in some way, is the best and most motivating kind of problems people can have.

So don't program for programming sake's, program to solve a problem that you care about.

[phkahler]

I'll bite. I used to enjoy programming just for the fun of it. By that I mean the satisfaction of getting the machine to do what I wanted it to do (never mind the huge psychoanalysis of emotional neglect here). I would still write programs that interested me, but the satisfaction tended to come from making it work. Imagine making games but not really caring to play them.

I've moved past that. I still write software but now it's more a means to an end. It's best if I'm working on something I care about and code is just how to get there.

It's not all one or the other though. I started learning Rust and that's kinda cool on it's own because it's no so tedious as C++. Point is that my interest in writing code has shifted a lot and I still do it.

[emsy]

I’ve seen enough colleagues who are just in it for the money and found a niche inside the company that avoids anything demanding. In that regard you can work in a mind numbing fashion that other, often lower paid, professions also have. I wouldn’t recommend it though because the trouble comes when switching jobs can’t be avoided.

[twowatches]

This describes me to a certain degree, and it's perfectly doable. I'm sure a lot of people do this, and I think a lot of the "find something you love" kind of posts are idealistic and unrealistic. I used to love software when I was younger and it was fresh and I still thought I might be a genius who could do something amazing, but then I went it to the real world and discovered that I was fairly average in what I did and, much importantly, anything you do for 40 hours a week becomes boring and a drag. That's why I keep my real interests and hobbies to my spare time where they're limited in time so they can't get boring. But at the same time this means I will never get that good at anything.

There are a small percentage of folk who are really good at programming and are at the bleeding edge making really cool stuff but for the vast majority it's just brick laying for a wage, which I think is fine but programming is exhausting so it's hard to find comfort and not burn out. I manage by having found cool guys to work with so it's a good laugh. I do wonder what I'll do when I finally just don't have the mental resilience to write code anymore and have to find another job.

[_9hey]

Agreed. Interest breeds talent and competence. Interest may come from a deeper sense of purpose. The truth will set you free.