[sneak]

I recently hit the wall with Ubuntu too. I'll still run -server in the cloud, but each time over the last 5-7 years I did point-samples of "is Linux viable as a desktop other than ChromeOS", it was always Ubuntu/Gnome. It turns out that that was my problem all along!

I tossed Gentoo and KDE (this is not a Gentoo endorsement, it was just a "hey I wonder what Gentoo's been up to in the last dozen years since I last used it") on a spare laptop. It turns out that KDE is amazing now. It's seriously the best DE I've ever used, and I'm a Mac user! (Half of the utilities I install out of the box on a fresh macOS are built in, and the annoying stuff that used to be editing arcane files is now easy preference settings. It's actually great.)

What the hell are Ubuntu doing shipping Gnome (with the ugliest custom theme known to man, to boot)? Admittedly it was my own ignorance, for which they are not responsible, but their mindshare and bad choice tainted my whole view of the state of the art for a long time.

[useragent86]

> Half of the utilities I install out of the box on a fresh macOS are built in, and the annoying stuff that used to be editing arcane files is now easy preference settings

That's been the case with KDE for 15-20 years now. KDE 3.5 was a great environment (and Trinity (TDE) is a modernized fork of it).

Note that, this year, KDE added telemetry to their Plasma desktop environment. Of course, it's opt-in, so it must be acceptable, right? Well, of course, users who objected to the telemetry found bugs that caused data to be recorded even when disabled.

KDE's response was to ban said users from reddit.com/r/kde and call them "paranoid schizos." (The mods there are KDE members wearing "KDE developer" flair, not random Redditors.)

So, despite using and recommending KDE for almost 2 decades, it's hard for me to do so any longer. I wholeheartedly recommend checking out TDE instead.

[sneak]

Thanks for letting me know. It looks like the telemetry (kuserfeedback) isn’t even a dep of the Gentoo plasma-meta metapackage, so I don’t think it was even built on my system (but will double check when not on mobile).

If I dabble with debian or kubuntu I will make sure to mitigate it, thank you for making it known, keep up this kind of good work!

It’s a real shame that they found it necessary to even build a telemetry client. I switched to free software after years on macOS (I remember upgrading to System 7) because of all the phone-home that Catalina STILL does even with iCloud, Siri, analytics/crashes, Screen Time, iMessage/FaceTime, Location Services, ntp, App Store, and software update all disabled.

iOS apps in the App Store are all allowed to phone-home like mad, too, and Apple permits this on the basis of you “opting in” to it in the App Store TOS, as if we have any sort of choice on iPhones. It’s totally endemic, and entirely undermines the credibility of Apple’s claims to caring about user privacy.

Seems like spying on users is getting heavily normalized these days. :(

[emilsedgh]

The grandparent is overreacting.

1. KDE's telemetry is opt-in (as you mentioned)

2. All data is anonymized

3. You can select which information you're comfortable to share

4. If you have it turned off, the data is recorded on your hard disk.

5. That data was always recorded in order to enable other features like "Recently used documents".

Here's some explanation:

https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/fmgyy9/kuserfeedback/

Honestly, KDE has been one of the most open, privacy aware and idealistic communities out there. The criticism is quite unfair.

(I used to be a KDE contributor)

[kirubakaran]

Are you able to address this point that comment made?

> users who objected to the telemetry found bugs that caused data to be recorded even when disabled.

> KDE's response was to ban said users from reddit.com/r/kde and call them "paranoid schizos."

[sneak]

The recording is local, on the hard disk. I think people are worried that by producing the files, there is just one layer of bug (accidental upload) keeping them private.

I agree. The data should not even be generated if the analytics are not opted-in-to.

I do give them credit for making the system opt-in. They deserve that.

[emilsedgh]

Not really. I wasn't aware of this. The only thing I found on reddit regarding the situation was the link I sent above which didn't have any controversy.

[Razengan]

> all the phone-home that Catalina STILL does even with iCloud, Siri, analytics/crashes, Screen Time, iMessage/FaceTime, Location Services, ntp, App Store, and software update all disabled.

Do you have examples of what you mean?

[sneak]

I have a bunch of Little Snitch screenshots around here somewhere, but it is easy to reproduce: do a fresh install on spare machine or VM (opt out of all services like iCloud, Siri, Location, MAS, et c), install Little Snitch, and then disable the built-in Little Snitch silent allow rules for “system services/iCloud” or whatever it’s called. Reboot and observe.

[eitland]

Do you happen to have links?

[anonymousab]

It appears to be this: https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/f7ojg9/kde_plasma_kuse...

It sounds a bit hyperbolic, but I can't recall a time when telemetry was added to a system and then later dialed back in any way. It always increases.

[exikyut]

Echoing the other similar comment, where can I find citations for this annoying drama I now need to take into account?

[snazz]

It's interesting how underrepresented KDE is in the "big distros". While it makes sense that Fedora and Ubuntu ship GNOME, and there are "spins" of each that include different desktops out of the box, it still surprises me.

[bzb3]

In my opinion KDE has always been way less polished than gnome and is currently not financially backed in any meaningful way. They also have problems focusing on the core product and won't stop shipping half-assed programs nobody asked for.

[coredog64]

Wasn’t there some big kerfuffle years ago involving KDE, Qt, and licensing?

[appleflaxen]

yes; and again about 2 weeks ago:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22821050

[guug]

There was.

[eitland]

Correct. A few more details:

>[...] To show our commitment to this dual licensing model, the KDE Free Qt Foundation was founded in 1998. It is a non-profit foundation ensuring that Qt will always be available under open source licensing terms. The agreement that governs this foundation has stayed mainly unchanged over the last 17 years. As a lot of things have changed during these years, we have been working with KDE over the last year to create a new and updated agreement that takes todays realities better into account.[...]

From: https://www.qt.io/blog/2016/01/13/new-agreement-with-the-kde...

The updated contract mentioned in that blog post is available here: https://kde.org/community/whatiskde/Software_License_Agreeme...

[useragent86]

You could look it up on Wikipedia. KDE and Qt are Free Software.

[m463]

I put arch/gnome on a system right next to an ubuntu box.

It was like a different gnome - quickly reaching the desktop and lots of nice differences (like the privacy menu wasn't crafted by marketing and legal)