[empira]

On the other hand, right now, only the rich, or those with good enough medical insurance (if your co-pay is more than you make in 6 months, are you really insured ?), have access to the expensive treatments. On a universal heathcase system, whatever the form it may take, more people would have access those expensive options. Is it better to sell your treatment to more people but at a smaller price tag, or to fewer people at a bigger one ? I guess the economics depend on each treatment.

Fostering innovation is of course important. Which is why you can deduct a lot of your R&D expenses from your taxes. Again, each country has its own tax code, so generalization might not be possible, but in a lot of cases, the hard work of finding new drugs is funded by the citizens, through tax breaks or research grants. The public sector, via universities and public labs, is a major player (although not the only one, of course) in the medical field.

Let's not forget that forcing people to stay with their employer to maintain insurance coverage is also a way to stifle innovation. How many of those workers could have and would have started a business, if not for the fear to loose everything in case of medical issues ? Surely the republicains would love to remove those kind of barriers to worker movement and innovation, wouldn't they ?

The universal healthcare system obviously isn't free. Altough some studies, and real life examples elsewhere in the world, showed it wouldn't be the money pit some imagine, it certainly doesn't run on love and compassion and fresh water only. The taxes in my country can show you that. But the social benefits and the peace of mind I enjoy are, in my very own and somewhat biased opinion, worth the cost.

[Consultant32452]

I feel like all you've done is point out exactly the cost in the cost/benefit analysis I gave. You pointed out that some treatments are expensive without acknowledging the high price encouraged it to be invented in the first place. Nor did you acknowledge that the patents will eventually expire and then that treatment will tend to become available to basically everyone.

We're talking about changing the velocity of innovation. Let's do a thought experiment about what innovations might be missing today if we implemented price controls everywhere in the globe 50 years ago. We might be missing the HPV vaccine leading to many cases of cancer for women. We might not have CRISPR. We might not have HIV treatments. High prices, profits, however you wish to put it, incentivized people to create these thing and go through the extremely difficult process of bringing them to market.

Now that's just a thought experiment about the past. It's impossible to know exactly what would have happened then, just like it's impossible to imagine the things that won't get invented 50 years from now. But we do know, according to basic mainstream economics, that price controls change the velocity of innovation. Since the velocity decreases, the farther you go into the future the more harm you cause through the lack of innovation.

I'm glad you brought up the fact that healthcare is tied to your employer. If you look up the history of this situation, you can see that it's the result of price controls enacted by the government on wages. Dumb things happen when we implement price controls.

[empira]

The drugs/treatment you mentioned where all developped thanks to public contributions, not purely private research.

HPV vaccines were first developed by the University of Queensland in Australia [1] and further improved by the the University of Queensland, Georgetown University Medical Center, University of Rochester, and the U.S. National Cancer Institute [1].

CRISPR was discovered by several researchers from the University of California, Berkeley, the Broad Institute of Harvard and MIT [2].

The public helped in the discovery of those treatments (through tax payer subsidies), and as such, in my view, are entitled to some kind of retribution. Having a form of universal healthcare, where the public can put pressure on companies to decrease the price of different treatment, is exactly that.

Regarding the velocity of innovation, I don't think it is hurt by a universal healthcare system. Everyone has access to those treatments, and so the profit on each instance of the treatment can be lowered while keeping the same total profit for the company manufacturing the pills.

What is the point to discover insuline if the price asked for a shot makes it impossible for some people to buy it ?

Even if some treatments, like drugs, can be made generic, and through that, have their price descrease in the futur, what about medical procedure ? Hip replacement won't suddenly or magically become cheaper in 5 years. Look at the price of stitches in the USA (For patients without health insurance, stitches typically cost $200-$3,000 or more, depending on the provider, the injury and the complexity of the repair [3]).

I do not propose to slash the profit of pharma companies. Like you said, academic studies consistently show that a reduction in current drug revenues leads to a fall in future research and the number of new drug discoveries [4]. Forbidding them one way or another to make a profit would be a net negative on the long term. But were our differences arise are in the implementtion of this principle. You propose, and correct me if I misunderstood, to let them set the price, and those how can will buy it. I propose to contain the cost so that all who need can afford it. The net result could be the same.

Price controls, like other types of controls, are a necessary evil in lots of case. It would be cheaper to allow companies to pollute everything and everyone, but we decided that society as a whole is better off with environmental controls. It would be cheaper to not test all those drugs and just let the market sort out which pills are working and which ones are dangerous, but we decided against it.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HPV_vaccine#History [2] https://time.com/time-person-of-the-year-2016-crispr-runner-... [3] https://health.costhelper.com/stitches.html [4] https://itif.org/publications/2019/09/09/link-between-drug-p...

[Consultant32452]

>The drugs/treatment you mentioned where all developped thanks to public contributions, not purely private research.

There's no such thing as a new drug that reaches the market without massive investment from private companies to do things like pay for FDA certifications, drug trials, etc. These are different categories of activities besides research. I don't think we're in conflict here.

>What is the point to discover insuline if the price asked for a shot makes it impossible for some people to buy it ?

What is the point to avoid discovering ways to create insulin altogether just because some people might not be able to afford it while the patent is active? What are the regulatory hurdles preventing generics?

>Hip replacement won't suddenly or magically become cheaper in 5 years.

Regulatory capture by medical unions is a separate topic.

>I propose to contain the cost so that all who need can afford it. The net result could be the same.

The net result is NOT the same if the new treatment is never created in the first place. That's the whole point.

>Price controls, like other types of controls, are a necessary evil in lots of case.

Again, this whole thread is about making sure we acknowledge the "evil" part, which is long term increase in death and suffering but short term reduction in death and suffering. After that, you can decide on your own whether or not things are "necessary."

[Moru]

The peace of mind and knowledge that everyone gets taken care of no matter what is worth the world to me.

[Consultant32452]

The "no matter what" in this case is that more people suffer and die for all time into the future so that fewer people can suffer and die today. That's a steep price to pay because the future and the amount of suffering people in it is functionally infinite. I think as long as you're willing to say that out loud and really mean it we've had a principled and honest discussion.