[diarmuidie]

I wish there was some sort of scoring system for product packaging that would take into account the quantity and environmental impact of the packaging. Like, if the product comes in a small cardboard box it gets a good score, but if that cardboard is lined with a plastic film (effectively making the cardboard non-recyclable) then the score goes way down.

That score could then be used by consumers to make informed decisions or maybe it's used to charge producers to cover the cost of safe disposal of the packaging when it reaches its end of life.

[Hokusai]

> I wish there was some sort of scoring system for product packaging that would take into account the quantity and environmental impact of the packaging.

It already exists: https://www.greenlivingtips.com/articles/recycling-by-the-nu...

I think that regulation is the only measure that works. Asking people to track the level of recycling of each item they buy is too much of a task. Minimum legal standards assure to remove the worst cases, and then information may help for conscienced individuals.

[gridlockd]

Given that paper bags have a worse environmental impact than plastic bags, I would suppose cardboard is worse than those plastic containers that are so annoying to open.

[kilo_bravo_3]

Paper bags do not have a worse environmental impact than plastic bags.

Paper bags have a worse impact in a very few, small, narrow metrics such as "ocean de-nutrification".

Everyone blurts this out because of a study done in Europe that looked only at a very limited range of environmental factors specifically suited to the country that commissioned the study.

Also, the vast majority of "savings" plastic bags realized over other forms of bag is the energy density of the petroleum used to produce them and the fact that that energy could be recovered by the massive network of refuse-to-power incineration stations in (the country that did the study, I can't remember).

But most plastic bags don't end up mindfully collected, sorted, and incinerated.

When taken as a whole, paper bags are much, much better for the environment than plastic bags.

In 100 years, the paper bag I (HYPOTHETICALLY) threw out my car window is long gone, worm food, turned into soil.

The plastic bag I (HYPOTHETICALLY) threw out my car window is now several billion flakes of microplastics and the world is struggling with the health ramifications of a century of build-up in the environment.

For that matter, the glass bottle is now harmless beach glass or sand (or a valuable collectible on ebay-next), and the aluminum beer can is now its 10,000th reincarnation-- having been picked up by a bum and traded in for cash.

My favorite "HOT TAKE" from that study is that "yOu HaVe To ReUsE a ClOtH bAg 500 tImEs" for it to be more efficient (in a very narrow spectrum of categories, remember) like that's an insurmountable hurdle.

My made-in-USA cotton totes I got on Amazon for $13.99 in 2010 have been used once a week since I got them.

You do the math.

[AstralStorm]

Personally, I find hard plastic fabric bags (multiple use, not foil) to be as good. Some of those have 40 years now and I'm not the first user (nylon). (Formerly known as potato sacks.) However, you do have to be diligent and not leave them lying about and they have to be durable enough to not tear, or mended. Hard polypropylene fiber bags are also good and durable, take less energy to make. PET is not durable enough, even thick.

A good cotton or linen or jute bag will live for some years of use too though. Main trade-off is water resistance. Only waxed woolen bags and leather (obnoxious for other reasons) are waterproof.

Another travesty are packing filler "peanuts", "airbags" and foam and plastic tape.

[diebeforei485]

Paper (dead tree) bags are worse because they tend to rip apart after a few uses. It doesn't matter so much what bag you use, as long as you re-use it.

Plastic in the oceans is an issue, but for the most part The plastic in the ocean doesn't come from developed countries.

[gridlockd]

> Paper bags have a worse impact in a very few, small, narrow metrics such as "ocean de-nutrification".

Paper bags require more reuse, that's the core finding of the study:

https://www2.mst.dk/Udgiv/publications/2018/02/978-87-93614-...

> Everyone blurts this out because of a study done in Europe that looked only at a very limited range of environmental factors specifically suited to the country that commissioned the study.

I wasn't aware that Denmark is a huge player in the international plastic bag trade, but perhaps I'm just uninformed.

> But most plastic bags don't end up mindfully collected, sorted, and incinerated.

Actually, they do - at least in the EU.

> The plastic bag I (HYPOTHETICALLY) threw out my car window is now several billion flakes of microplastics and the world is struggling with the health ramifications of a century of build-up in the environment.

The world doesn't even know yet if microplastics are a serious health problem, but if they are, then we've already reached the point of no return.

> For that matter, the glass bottle is now harmless beach glass or sand (or a valuable collectible on ebay-next), and the aluminum beer can is now its 10,000th reincarnation-- having been picked up by a bum and traded in for cash.

What about the added weight of the glass bottle requiring more fossil fuel to transport? What about all the energy required to reuse that aluminum? There's good arguments for either of these materials - I don't want to drink my beer out of a plastic bottle - but helping the environment isn't one of them.

> My favorite "HOT TAKE" from that study is that "yOu HaVe To ReUsE a ClOtH bAg 500 tImEs" for it to be more efficient (in a very narrow spectrum of categories, remember) like that's an insurmountable hurdle.

It's not insurmountable, but people just don't do it. These bags get disgusting after a while. People are throwing them away. Same with "reusable" PET bags.

> My made-in-USA cotton totes I got on Amazon for $13.99 in 2010 have been used once a week since I got them.

You deserve a burial at Arlington for that.

[kilo_bravo_3]

Whoever told you that is mistaken.

Even in “incineration-friendly” countries, less than a quarter of all trash is incinerated.

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php...

[gridlockd]

In the EU, most plastic trash is either incinerated (39%) or recycled (30%).

https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/headlines/society/201...

The study considers both the recycling and the incineration scenario and in either case the plastic bag comes out on top.

[chaostheory]

To add to kilo_bravo_3 8's comment: Almost all plastics, even non-BPA variants, have been found to leech synthetic estrogen https://www.npr.org/2011/03/02/134196209/study-most-plastics...