[TwoNineFive]

I think the very fact that you want winners and losers is the problem. That shouldn't be the goal in having a discussion with another person.

Focusing on the mechanics and methods has left you blind to the outcome, as demonstrated:

> You have to argue successfully on both sides to win a competition

Who, in the real world, would use a skill like this? Lawyers who defend corporations who poison populations? Murderers? Sleazy politicians?

It might just be that you have demonstrated the very thing being discussed: Talking past the issue at hand. The OP isn't about the mechanics of debate. It's about talking past the issue.