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by AngrySkillzz 2254 days ago
Every HN thread on economics has a bunch of comments like these that are earnestly misinformed about economics. When commenting on something outside of your wheelhouse, please recall Socrates from the Apology: "I observed that even the good artisans fell into the same error as the poets; because they were good workmen they thought that they also knew all sorts of high matters, and this defect in them overshadowed their wisdom."

I'll point out just two deficiencies in these threads and leave the rest to you. If P/E ratios in the US are "too high," then people would invest their money elsewhere for better return, right? Maybe international stocks or bonds or whatever. And why don't they, if they have every incentive to seek a better return? Because there are no better returns, even in countries with higher interest rates. So how could P/E ratios be too high? The more likely explanation is that this is the "new normal" - savings outpaces investment opportunities for many reasons (aging populations, growth in countries with stronger saving cultures, etc.), which pushes up the premium on assets.

Second, on the subject of interest rates and QE, a little international perspective would make you reconsider the effect on the overall economy. All other developed economies have lower interest rates, more QE, and slower growth than the US. Look at Europe, look at Japan. The issues of "why are asset prices rising" and "why is inflation low" are much larger than just US policy. We are talking global trade and demographic factors that influence these things. The current stance of fiscal and monetary policy is the symptom, not the cause. And in fact the US has been significantly more successful than our counterparts on that topic, as a fast and strong response in 2008 pre-empted the kind of drawn out economic malaise seen in Europe, where the ECB waited years before easing policy to the degree that we had. Now Europe has lower rates, more QE, lower inflation, a worse labor market, and less growth than the US. And that's before factoring in the coronavirus crisis. Policy may have increased inequality in some ways, but if you're going to make that claim you have to also answer the corresponding counter-factual: potentially the poor would have been even worse off (relative to the rich) if there were no policy interventions and the labor market collapsed. There have been some papers on the topic, and it is not at all obvious that inequality is worse now than it would have been if there was less policy intervention.

6 comments

I never said that P/E ratios in the US are "too high". I said that they've been higher in recent years than in past history.

This is, as you said, because the amount of money chasing investment opportunities is increasing. I agree that the reasons for this are complex, but one significant reason that the amount of money chasing investment opportunities is increasing is central bank stimulus (not just in the US, but worldwide).

The rise of asset prices definitely is a much more complex issue than just US policy, but I'd still argue that stimulus by the US is one of the causes, not only a symptom.

I agree with you that the US has been more successful in managing the 2008 crisis than the ECB, and that part of that was because we recognized that we needed stimulus earlier on in the crisis. But this doesn't contradict anything else that I said.

I also never made the claim that the counterfactual of no stimulus would have been better - I personally believe it would have been worse, since the economy and labor market would have likely went through a longer and more serious collapse. But again, this does not contradict what I said about central bank stimulus being one of the significant causes in the rise of prices in financial assets.

I appreciate your response and think you're mostly on the right track. I didn't intend to call you out, more to point out a few mistakes in thinking that are common in these kinds of threads on HN (and indeed are more egregious elsewhere in the responses to this OP).
> I also never made the claim that the counterfactual of no stimulus would have been better

To be fair, that wasn't the only option. There was the debate in 2007/08 about how much of the stimulus should be monetary vs handouts directly to taxpayers vs infrastructure. There's some who believe that the "infrastructure" portion was too small of the pie, hence the stomach for things like "Infrastructure Week" from Trump or "Green New Deal" from the left wing of the Democrats.

In the abstract, I liked the idea of spending it on infrastructure, but over the ensuing decade I’ve become deeply skeptical of the ability of the US government to effectively spend more money. California high speed rail and the NY subway are exhibits a and b.
I agree with you (to your point) about California high speed rail: a solution looking for a problem. But NY subway is arguably something that could generate huge returns if the capex was committed to modernizing and automating the public transport of the biggest city in the USA and a major financial capital.
CAHSR is mostly proof of a few things that America gets wrong

- heavy reliance on consultants is not a financially prudent exercise compared to building up a competent civil service, particularly since consultants want to keep the gravy train running

- sustained funding for projects is the way to build up a civil service that can push out projects; conversely, "get a ballot measure passed first and ask questions later" is a very bad model.

> earnestly misinformed about economics

Economics is a weird discipline where everyone becomes an expert on it at age 15. I've even seen people confidently expound on economics when it's clear they don't even understand the difference between revenue and profit.

In contrast, nobody is willing to argue with a physicist unless they are at least as educated in physics as their counterpart is.

It's really a shame that although we live in a market economy, there is no attempt whatsoever in K-12 to explain how markets, business, and accounting work. A high school graduate is unlikely to even grasp what compound interest is.

There are a number of subjects like this. I feel it has something to do with not making predictions about the future -- leaves no clear indication of good/bad decisions that are tied to skill.

The really interesting areas like this is something like fringe/doomsday religions, that do make predictions about the future. When these predictions inevitably fail to pass, the believers double down.

Because economics isn't a real science. As soon as someone starts talking about it like it is a science my bullshit alarm rings and I politely extract myself from the conversation.
This is basically my point. Didn't particularly mean to criticize davidxc, more the tendency for people on HN to assume that because they're good at programming they must also know a lot about economics, the stock market, and etc.
To be fair, there might not be anyone who can opine on economics and be correct. It's all either survivor/hindsight bias, or making indistinct, unverifiable predictions.

Economics happens to have high stakes, so people flock to it. Nobody really knows what's going on.

We do know a few things, such as attempts to repeal the law of Supply & Demand fails again and again. We also know there is no Free Lunch, as every effort to implement one has failed.

It's like I am no physicist, but I know that anyone who claims he's invented a Perpetual Motion machine is either a fraud or made a mistake.

"a bunch of comments like these that are earnestly misinformed about economics. "

" savings outpaces investment opportunities for many reasons (aging populations, growth in countries with stronger saving cultures, etc.), which pushes up the premium on assets."

The savings rate is not correlated with stock prices. [1]

"All other developed economies have lower interest rates, more QE, and slower growth than the US. "

No, they have similar rates per capita. US grows because it brings in more bodies [2]. Moving warm bodies from A->B implying a loss somewhere and again somewhere else isn't exactly growth. (I mean - yes, they probably can be more productive in America). But this is not an economic marvel.

The OPs statements concerning inflation of financial assets is very, very reasonable economics.

[1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/246234/personal-savings-...

[2] All other developed economies have lower interest rates, more QE, and slower growth than the US.

The argument is not that the US savings rate pushes up the value of financial assets in the US, I'm talking about globally (i.e. the global savings glut hypothesis). Countries like China, Saudi Arabia, and Germany have significant capital account surpluses which continue to get invested in assets in the US, particularly the stock market.
This is a fair point. But the Fed has been playing funny money during all this time, backing dollars with garbage real-estate, so I don't think it's fair to say this is just a regular 'new normal' as in asset prices were marked properly.

'New Funny Money Normal' - maybe, but the massive Fed balance sheet first enables those with assets, not those who don't i.e. 'the rich'.

This is unlikely to be read given how late it is -- but one major flaw in your argument is the statement "people would invest their money elsewhere". It is very clear that the largest investors are not using "their money" but borrowed money. Ultra-cheap debt has enabled hedge funds and companies to leverage up and purchase far more stock than they could otherwise afford, massively driving up demand and pumping up equity prices to the high P/E ratios that you dismiss -- and low interest rates are the enabler.

Stock Buybacks By Corporations The Largest Share of U.S. Equity Demand

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlenzner/2018/02/22/stock-...

you can't make such a grandiose condemnation of "earnest misinformation" and then not make perfectly defensible arguemnts, lest you make the exact same mistake you condemn.

p/e ratios at historical highs is a statement that they've disconnected from their fundamentals, i.e., the price of a share of a company is (often much) more than the expected present value of all future cash flow for that share.

that there are no better alternative investments just strengthens the case that those p/e ratios are irrationally high for those assets, not that the strategy of investing in the best available alternative is irrational.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. You can't easily say that asset prices are "disconnected from their fundamentals" - the price is what people are willing to pay for the future earnings of those companies. People are willing to pay a higher premium for those earnings now than they have in the past. Instead of the comparison to historical highs, try looking at developing countries, with lower P/E's and higher interest rates. Yet investors are still willing to pay a premium for US stocks. If you're going to say that the price is wrong, you need to account for that discrepancy. It seems that the argument you want to make is that people buy overvalued US companies because they think everyone else will continue to buy overvalued US companies?
i'm saying the premium you mention is the additional willingness-to-pay for those equities being the best available, not something intrinsic to the underlying business. it's on top of the value of the cash flows.

in a hypothetical market with 2 relatively correlated (similar beta) stocks, one that historically returns 10% and one that returns 2% and an expectation that those returns continue in the near future, you'd put all your money on the first stock, regardless of the price and regardless of systemic conditions.

in that scenario, you'd expect to be making your most rational choice even if you overpay severely. in the case that the market crashes, you'd lose less money than the opposite scenario. the price says nothing about the value of the underlying cash flows (the fundamentals).

this is one way economic bubbles develop.

> irrationally high for those assets

Are you shorting those assets?

Edit: is this not a fair question? Putting one's own money on the line is a reasonable test of what one's convictions are. For example, I'm optimistic about the market, and have put my money where my mouth is. Of course, that doesn't mean I'm right, but I have a level of confidence that I am.

that's mostly a gamble about timing, not the validity of the p/e ratio--that you can both get into and get out of a short position with sufficiently precise timing.

so no.

I think your question is riding the edge of what might be considered too confrontational on HN.

the overall sentiment is reasonable, of course. you shouldn't listen to people who say the sky is about to fall while they continue buying $SPY every other friday.

AngrySkillzz: you're trying to sound informed, but you're not.

Economics is known as the "dismal science" for a reason, and your ECON101 rehash doesn't help anybody.

Stocks have a high PE today because interest rates have been low since 2008, so investors have no choice but to buy real estate or stocks.

Most European countries don't have functioning economies, so buying on Italian or Spanish exchanges is pure speculation.