[firebacon]

The other difference of course is that in Germany, only a fairly small proportion of high school students is even allowed to go to Uni.

People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all!

Also the problem of cost of living while studying isn't exactly trivial. Accommodation, food and participating in general student life all are things that cost a lot of money. You will need at least 1k-1.5k EUR net per month, which means earning 2k or more gross. That's not exactly easy to do on the side, since most degree programmes are full-time only; you are expected to put your 40 hours a week towards the degree and not some other job to finance yourself.

When polled, 87% of students answered that they were dependent on financial support from their parents and 12% received state-sponsored loans [1].

So let's not kid ourselves. The question of whether you will go to Uni or not, in Germany, also depends to a very large degree on who and how wealthy your parents are.

Statistically speaking, your chance to go to Uni is 27% if your parents are blue collar workers. It is 79% if your parents also hold academic degrees. If your parents have no professional training at all, the probability is 12%. [2]

So maybe we should focus on our own issues first ;)

[1] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/bildung/studienfinanzierung-so-k...

[2] https://www.forschung-und-lehre.de/lehre/nichtakademiker-kna...

[eulenteufel]

> You will need at least 1k-1.5k EUR net per month, which means earning 2k or more gross.

I am currently living as a student with ~ 500 EUR per month from working a student job in Berlin. This is not the most comfortable life, but is certainly is doable. On top of that we have BAföG which, if your parents don't earn very much, can be enough to study or at least be a good support. While BAföG is still some kind of loan, you only have to pay back half of it and the rest has no interest.

From what I found [1] about 41% of children are eligible for studying at a university. While I don't think this is ideal and the unfortunately the early tracking still does it's part to keep people from less privileged backgrounds out of uni, I do think that a system where access to higher education is tied to formal graduation sounds fairer than a system where you have to be well off or very gifted to make it to uni.

[1] https://www.welt.de/print/die_welt/politik/article156291438/...

[fastball]

> I do think that a system where access to higher education is tied to formal graduation sounds fairer than a system where you have to be well off or very gifted to make it to uni.

Seems like a false dichotomy.

[eulenteufel]

You can have both success in school and wealth as a filter if that is what you mean, but I don't think that is very desirable outcome.

The other answer mentioned state scholarships, which are offered to gifted and poor students. The options to go to uni are now: - Have parents who can pay for your studies - Be gifted/hard working enough to get a scholarship (I don't know how easy that is.) - Be lucky to get a state scholarship for poor people - Take massive student debt

This still doesn't look very nice in my eyes. Of course I am heavily influenced by my own perspective. I most probably wouldn't have been able to study in the US system. My teenage self was way to inexperienced to even consider taking a massive student loan.

[DeathArrow]

In our country we have state scholarships, awarded to both top students and poor students. While not much, that can help.

[OMGWTF]

> People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all!

There are a few ways to get into University later in life in Germany. I wasn't placed into "Gymnasium". But I got my "Mittlere Reife" (grade 10, age 16), did a three-year apprenticeship, worked a few years and got back into school ("Berufsoberschule"). I finally got into University in my late 20ies and have a Masters degree now.

> Also the problem of cost of living while studying isn't exactly trivial. Accommodation, food and participating in general student life all are things that cost a lot of money.

If your parents can't support you, there is "BAFöG". Depending on your situation the state can support you with e.g. around 600 EUR per month for up to five years. You have to pay it back after your studies but only up to 10000 EUR (~ $11000). You can wait up to five years to start paying back and then pay around 390 EUR per quarter. Or you can get another discount if you pay it back all at once.

And there are other programs to help pay for your accommodation if you really can't afford it.

I'm not saying it's easy, but it's certainly possible if read up on the school system and support programs or if you ask the right school/student advisors.

[notechback]

It's a very complex issue with many elements.

E.g. the EU has been critising Germany's early 'tracking' on one or the other path for decades, some changes have taken place with a new school type introduced a few years ago, but getting schools/cities/.. to switch to this has been an uphill battle. While German students are expected to finance themselves, those from low income families get financial support (a loan with very favourable terms that only has to be paid back if the student reaches a certain income threshold after their studies). The problem that low socio-economic background youth don't study is not primarily a financial issue; much more a matter of aspirations and the tracking you mention. There are ways to switch tracks but it's not the most obvious choice for students.

But it's also a matter of what is prioritised: in Germany (and Austria, Denmark, ...) vocational education is much more important and also much more respectable than in most other countries. What is on each track also differs, e.g. in Germany you could study IT/software development etc or you could do most of these also on a vocational track and most often right away have a job afterwards. Nursing is in Germany a vocational profession, in the UK you'd pursue a bachelor's at a university for it. In Spain many youth go to university because they don't have any other real options to choose from; and graduates leave university there often with zero practical skills (improving in past years but not easy). Lithuania has a higher education rate that is above 80% and they are actively trying to reduce it as you just can't use that many higher education graduated and need the vocational professionals as well.

So, complex issue. Not everyone needs to have a higher education degree (and much less does everyone want one). Too few or too many tertiary graduates is both not ideal. But do students need to end up with debt around 100k (US) or even just 30k (UK) if they choose tertiary studies? I don't think so.

[watwut]

> The other difference of course is that in Germany, only a fairly small proportion of high school students is even allowed to go to Uni.

Among 25- to 29-year-olds in United States, the percentage with a bachelor’s or higher degree is 37 percent, and the percentage with a master’s or higher degree is 9 percent.

For Germany, the best guess I found was 32% in tertiary education. Which is lower, but not that much lower. It is not like most people in the United States would have college degree.

> When polled, 87% of students answered that they were dependent on financial support from their parents and 12% received state-sponsored loans [1].

The amount it costs to pay for "accommodation, food and participating in general student life" in Germany is significantly less then to pay for "college itself, books, accommodation, food and participating in general student life in United States. The fact that majority of middle class student can do it on parental help alone makes situation massively different then when students have to take on debt.

[mettamage]

In The Netherlands education is cheap (compared to the US) and there's a test that you're allowed to take when you're 21. If you pass that test, then you can study any undergraduate degree that you want. I know this is the case for Dutch citizens, not sure about other nationalities.

The reason I'm writing about this is because this test is not well-known at all. I found it by Googling when I was a student, for fun. A family member (much later) actually took it and she is now done with masters in fiscal law.

So before people say it's impossible in Germany, might it have something similar? I mean, our high school systems seem quite alike (I went to a pre-university high school and they make you believe that your faith is sealed at the age of 12, good times). So they might also have this rule of exception.

[firebacon]

In Germany there are, as far as I know, also a number of ways to get an exception. The normal way to attend Uni if you did not get the right Abitur from your high school however is to simply repeat high school from age 18 to ~21. This is called "Zweiter Bildungsweg" (Second Path to Education).

There is the colloquium doctum in the Netherlands, but you're still at a relative disadvantage if you're not put on the right track (VWO) as a child. So while the Dutch do a lot of things much better than the Germans, I think this one is only marginally improved.

Also cost of living in the Netherlands is far from cheap and as far as I know the Uni doesn't really help with that. So I'm still not sure how one would go about completing five or six years of full-time studies here without any financial assistance, either from their parents or by taking out a loan?

At the end of the day, it's always possible to go to Uni somehow, even if you had the bad luck to get sorted into the wrong bucket as a child. But it obviously takes much more effort than would have been required if you were placed in the right high school from the start. And even once you are admitted to Uni, not having a steady stream of passive income puts you at a huge disadvantage compared to most of the other students that do have it.

So my point is that, even in Europe, having wealthy and well-educated parents still puts you at a huge advantage when it comes to education. It's not exactly a solved problem here either.

[mettamage]

> There is the colloquium doctum in the Netherlands, but you're still at a relative disadvantage if you're not put on the right track (VWO) as a child. So while the Dutch do a lot of things much better than the Germans, I think this one is only marginally improved.

I disagree. I'm curious what you believe the disadvantage is. There is adult high school education in which you can obtain the VWO level (pre-university level -- loosely translated to English). You're a few years behind, but that's not too much of a disadvantage, unless you live in very poor (unsustainable) circumstances. The issue then becomes simply surviving and doing well academically, that is really tough.

I've seen my family member go through this and the odds were stacked against her. Yet, she transformed from someone who I considered as ignorant[1] to someone who was articulate and quite well-measured. All she had going for her was that her situation was stable. But:

- She had a child to take care of.

- She had a rough childhood and all the educational disadvantages that come with it.

If she can do it, then most people can. A lot of people in her situation miss the drive, or don't have a stable situation.

On an educational/state level, I can't see how the government can improve it, the opportunities are there. There are adult schools, there is a relatively fair entrance test. To make it more fair, they'd need to give disadvantaged youth a break from their abusive parents because that's how ignorance is cultivated in the first place: a fucked up/very toxic family situation. But how is a government going to do that?

[1] Little skills, really strong unfounded opinions, forcing them down your throat to the point of throwing a huge temper tantrum, not curious about anything.

[drpgq]

"People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all!"

I lived and worked in Germany and eventually moved back to Canada. When I would hear people talk about how university here should be free like Germany I would often think, well if university was like in Germany, you might not be going, but not because of money.

[_v7gu]

Seeing the quality and attitudes of the students, I don't think having limited access to university would be a bad thing.

[em-bee]

that is not quite correct. apart from the gymnasium which you enter in 5th grade (not at age 8) there is also the gesamtschule which offers all three kinds of graduations. in a gesamtschule the decision to do the final three years of high school to get the abitur isn't really made until you are in grade 10. so there is absolutely no reason that anyone is prevented from getting into university just because they or their parents didn't decide early enough.

as for the cost of living, there is financial support for everyone who otherwise can't afford it. if the majority of students depend on their parents then thats because those parents can afford it.

but money is not the main reason why most people don't get into university.

germany has other good options for higher education besides university. the USA does not.

it is only natural that most people follow their parents when it comes to higher education. i do not see that as a problem that needs to be solved. it may be beneficial to mix things up a little, but university education is not a panacea, and i'd rather see the reputation and recognition of alternatives increased.

[barry-cotter]

> People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all!

Interesting. When I lived in Germany you could go to university if you had an Abitur by virtue of having attended a normal Gymnasium (grammar school), by attending an Aufbaugymnasium after graduating Realschule or Hauptschule and getting an Abitur that way or by completing an apprenticeship and then going to university.

When were those other routes to university closed off?

[mattlondon]

> People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all!

This is curious. Can you elaborate?

So if you don't do a gymnasium class (i.e. physical education I guess?) at 8, you are barred from going to uni at all, regardless of grades? So you might suck at the parallel bars or pommel horse as an 8 year old, but be an absolute mathematical genius but because you couldn't do 100 star jumps in 60 seconds you can't go to uni? Who decides if you can do the gym class? What is it based on?

This sounds very bizarre!

I only have UK experience (or at least how it was years ago - I might be out of touch): unis set subjects+grades they are prepared to accept and if you are predicted to get the grades (or already have got the grades) then you are eligible to apply regardless of what you did as a child. In the UK you do pay these days though - when I went it was about £1000 a year but it is more than that now (9k I think)

[_Microft]

This is not about sports. This might clear it up:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gymnasium_(school)

[imtringued]

>People that were not placed into Gymnasium at age 8 are set on a course where, once they turn 18, do not get to go free Uni; they simply are not allowed to go to Uni at all!

Well, that's not true at all. If you finish Realschule or Hauptschule you can decide to go the Gymnasium when you are 16. You can also go to a Gymnasium for adults while you work.

From my experience at least a third of my fellow Realschule graduates decided to continue school and go to the Gymnasium. Then at work I knew at least two people who decided to go to an evening Gymnasium while they were working at their first job. The problem clearly isn't a lack of opportunity. The number of people enrolling at our evening Gymnasium is shrinking and at some point they might have to shut it down completely.