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by antpls 2261 days ago
Again, this solution _cannot_ work and it is a _threat_ to a permanent loss of privacy.

This is like the government and the adtech companies sleeping in the same bed, without any other power opposition in the balance.

1) The "solution" is created by a monopoly of 2 american private corporations.

2) It can only work reliably if everyone wear an (Apple or Android) phone at all time, and consent to give data

3) You are not necessarily infected if you cross an infected in the street at 5 meters. This will have too many false positives and give fuzzy information to people

4) It doesn't help people who are infected and _dying_

It just _doesnt make sense_. To me, it looks like electronic voting, but worse. No one can understand how it works, beside experts.

Today it is reviewed, but then the app will be forgotten and updated in the background with "new features" for adtech.

We are forgetting what we are fighting : a biological virus. All effort should go toward understanding the biological machinery of the virus and the hosts, in order to _cure_ the virus. We should be 3D printing ventilators, analysing DNA sequences, build nanorobots and synthesis new molecules.

4 comments

From looking at the specification, I don't see any serious loss of privacy there, if this is implemented as stated.

2) You don't need 100%, you only need enough to drop the R0 below 1. You'll likely need a majority of people using this, which is hard enough, but you don't need everyone using it.

3) The apps are not supposed to include every single registered contact, only contacts that are over a bit longer timeframe. A typical value I've heard is 15 minutes close contact, that is considered a high risk contact when contact tracing.

Minor nitpick: the R0 is the basic reproduction number, it describes the infectivity if no measures are taken to control the spread.

You’re looking for R, the effective reproduction number, which is R0 plus all controls.

> 1. You'll likely need a majority of people using this, which is hard enough, but you don't need everyone using it.

It's going to be built into iOS and Android at the operating system level, and I assume have a very clear prompt to opt-in. It would not surprise me if it quickly reaches >50% of active users, at least for iOS.

Getting a timely Android update on the other hand...

So what are you doing here posting, why have you not solved all the problems already? Get to work!
1) and 2) - the fact that Google and Apple have what is essentially a monopoly on smartphone software is exactly what makes this a good approach. it's the easiest way to reach a high percentage of the population.

3) false positive are a hell of a lot better than having no way to trace back contacts while someone was asymptomatic but contagious.

4) it helps stop others from becoming infected and possibly dying. how is that not a good thing?

> We should be 3D printing ventilators, analysing DNA sequences, build nanorobots and synthesis new molecules.

3D printing ventilators is a horrible idea, and everything else towards a vaccine takes _time_. This is something that can be rolled out today and that will help the situation. You can uninstall the app when this is over.

As both are untrustworthy American corporations no matter what they do or say it will always be a huge privacy issue. I would go back to my old SE810i phone the instant this was forced on iOS and Android users. People are already doing this (especially young people) so this will be apple and google shooting themselves in the foot.
I mean, yes, they are evil untrustworthy American corporations, but _they_ already know where you are and who you've met.
> 4) it helps stop others from becoming infected and possibly dying. how is that not a good thing?

The virus will always be here, we cannot hide forever, we must find a way to cure it or reduce its biological effect. Once covid19 goes away (if ever), and a new virus appears, NO ONE will have that app turned on, and by then, the new virus will have spread just like covid19.

I have a very simple solution to win time : total confinement of people of more than 60 years old when a new virus is detected, and wash hands.

Also check hemo2life, which is an example of what we could do in terms of medicine

> Once covid19 goes away (if ever), and a new virus appears, NO ONE will have that app turned on, and by then, the new virus will have spread just like covid19.

Devil's advocate: so why not just keep the app running forever in the background?

If there's no virus to report - that's fine.

But the moment a new outbreak starts, the data is already there, you just have to report that you're sick.

Absolutely, and if it is indeed local only and encrypted until you say you are infected, it could be part of HealthKit and Android equivalent (don't know if it has a name)
Why not implement all your solution and contact tracing, won't help you to know that the person you sit near in a bus/plane just died by an infection diseases? Maybe you are doomed but you might just save your family. The next virus might affect children not only elders, we need to have every possible tool at our disposal including PPR, test equipment.

Maybe contact tracing is late (or maybe not) but is good to have a good system ready when the next one might appear.

I am so terribly frightened by that move I am seriously considering getting rid of Android. Of what I have heard it's going to be backed into the OS and not installed as an app I could de-install / block, right?

What truly open Smart phone OSes are available besides Android and iOS?

None. If you're concerned, do not carry a spy around with you.

I know, it's a scary thought compared to 30 years ago, but it's possible.

Librem is the usual answer, but aren’t there other, existing, baked in parts of Android that compromise your privacy? It won’t change much because of this project.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Librem_5