[brabel]

It would still be beautiful without the pointe. For some reason, in many activities, people tend to go to the greatest lengths for even the smallest gains... ballet without pointe would still be ballet, I think non-experts like me would barely notice if they stopped using those - yet all ballet dancers sacrifice their feet for that perhaps last 2%. Why isn't there any ballets that just don't use pointe? Perhaps there is, would be nice to get to know about them.

[mudita]

I think that part of the allure and magic of ballet is exactly this perfection, this going for the last few percents.

But I agree with you that dance without pointe can be great.

I went a unconventional way as a dancer. I discovered dance relatively late in my life, quit my computer science phd and did a bit unconventional contemporary dance education, which had almost no classical Ballet training. So I don’t know so much about what’s going on in the Ballet world. But I do think that not all contemporary Ballet dancers use pointe.

Also, most contemporary dancers are trained in Ballet as well and depending on the style of the artists contemporary dance can contain more or less Ballet elements without doing pointe work.

See for example Wayne McGregor, whose performances look very classical to me: https://youtu.be/2SMmL6kIx-w

Or for example these scene of performances by Pina Bausch and Peeping Tom, which are maybe a bit less classical, but performed by excellent dancers, who are also trained classically. https://youtu.be/J3i7r79dtFo https://youtu.be/b1SIUcfS1Zw

In general there has been a lot of progress in working with the body, not against it, especially in contemporary dance, but also in Ballet.

[sooheon]

Whether it actually is even 2% more beautiful is entirely subjective. Disciplines that are entirely subjective and cultural tend to develop memetic inbreeding, and one of the ways to reach "ever greater heights" in such an art is with costly signaling. Claims that such and such arbitrary sacrifice is necessary for a higher ideal or beauty are easy to sustain through dogma (because there is no truly objective beauty).

An example: Kyokushin, the "full contact" karate of its time, is now a shell of its former self, with simultaneous xenophobia and infighting. It's lost touch by declining to be tested against reality, and now you have 100kg practitioners being pummeled by 65kg MMArtists[1]. You hear the exact same memes about following tradition and sacrificing the body in order to attain a higher ideal.

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPt9c_0bsZc&feature=youtu.be...

[gadders]

>>It would still be beautiful without the pointe.

That reminds me of the Monty Python joke:

"Why do they make all them all go on tip-toe? Why don't they just get taller dancers?"

//edit//And if you're interested in an article on the people that make the shoes:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-big-burly-blokes-who...

[pnw_hazor]

In ballet, being invited into pointe class is a big deal coming of age for ballet dancers. It represents their first step to becoming a real ballet dancer. Dancers don't get to do pointe until/unless they are good enough. It takes a few years of non-pointe ballet and not everyone gets invited to do it.

I think it appeals to people who strive to be recognized as elite members of a group. My daughter couldn't wait to get into pointe class. However, once she got in and did it a couple a years she moved on from ballet. But she still gets admiration when it comes up that she did pointe and was in a couple of Nutcrackers.

I remember when my daughter's cohort were invited to start pointe. They were all so proud and happy. Now, for the first time the Ballet Mistress would spend time with them, personally showing them how to sew the ribbons on their toe shoes, talking to them about foot care and pain, and so on.

It is a bit like if a figure skater learns to land single Axels in competition. Most people never get there. (Let alone triples or quads that we are used to seeing on TV). Landing single Axels in competition was the first separator of competitive skaters from recreational skaters. I think pointe is similar in ballet.

[api]

> in many activities, people tend to go to the greatest lengths for even the smallest gains

It's a show-off / machismo thing. In our own field I'd relate it to the culture of extreme workaholism. If you are working 100 hour work weeks you are almost certainly not being productive for anywhere near that many hours unless you are on drugs, and that's sustainable for at most a week or two before you crash hard. In my experience people who claim that kind of loony work week are usually lying. The only exception seems to be natural manic personalities, but that mutation comes with its own set of serious drawbacks.

[pnw_hazor]

I think it more related to a mastery of a skill that is difficult to master. Such that knowing that skill sets one apart from the average programmer.

I am not sure of a good example tech, but maybe something like being the one person in the shop that has completely mastered a subject matter area that others haven't bothered to learn because it is too hard/confusing? Maybe, the device driver coder versus the application coder, etc. The amount of hours put in grinding at the office may be the same, but some people have mastered skills that are perceived as elite over other skills.

Pointe is a first level elite skill in Ballet. Some dancers may learn pointe faster or slower than others, but most dancers never will. By the time dancers are decent/comfortable on pointe and yet still far from professional level, they will be in an elite group.

edit-to-add: A big weakness with my analogous examples is that I feel that any decent programmer can learn device drive programming, difficult APIs, new data structures/algos, and so on, if they put the time in.

In contrast, many dancers that would like to dance pointe will be unable to, no matter how hard they try. Same with figure skaters who want to land a single Axel in competition. Chess mastery might be a good example too.

[michaelt]

  Why isn't there any ballets that just don't use pointe?

The kind of people who wouldn't notice if ballet dancers stopped doing pointe aren't the kind of people who fund ballet companies' new works of choreography.

They're probably quite happy seeing Swan Lake or The Nutcracker or Romeo and Juliet - iconic, traditional works. Nothing wrong with that, of course! But a ballet watcher will almost certainly recognise pointe well before they encounter a work less than 30 years old.

[sbaha88]

Yep, totally agree with you. It doesn't have to be that way