[throwanem]

Eight hundred years still counts as "old". Horace, whose "Drive out nature with a pitchfork..." only makes sense in context of the same dichotomy, predates ibn Tufail by about a millennium in any case. And I'd argue for a likely origin alongside that of agriculture, which was much earlier still.

[earthboundkid]

Ibn Tufail is one of the fathers of modernity. His book was translated by one of John Locke’s friends. In the context of history, this is early modern Spain. 800 years is a long time for an individual, but if the question is "did people always do this or is this a modern thing?" then finding a text at the dawn of modernity which was specifically influential on later moderns doesn't count as evidence that people always did a thing.

I’d need to read Horace to get a sense of the context there.

EDIT: Looked up Horace:

> We, who love the country, salute Fuscus that loves the town… If we must live suitably to nature, and a plot of ground is to be first sought to raise a house upon, do you know any place preferable to the blissful country? … You may drive out nature with a fork, yet still she will return, and, insensibly victorious, will break through [men's] improper disgusts.

I believe in context, this is about how country living is better than city living, so it's not really about "man vs. nature" at all. I think the metaphor is that like a farm where you're ploughing the soil, still little plants will do their thing, so too you may like the city, but little bursts of rural enthusiasm will burst through.

Ibn Tufail came up with a thought experiment of "What if a person were born on a desert island? How far could they build a civilization?" The English translated this in the early modern period, and it gave birth to Robinson Crusoe, which in turn gave birth to a million derivates which pit lone individuals against the wilderness. (Robinson Crusoe → Survivor → The Apprentice → Coronavirus disaster!) AFAICT, this is a purely modern phenomenon, but again, I'd be interested in seeing what predecessors there are historically that I'm missing.

[throwanem]

I mean, I'm not knocking, but I do wonder if you're taking "man vs. nature" to mean something more specific than the way it's being intended, is all. Not so much Bear Grylls, as just the idea that the two categories exist in a way that's distinct from one another. Although I am glad to know that Bear Grylls is drawing on so historically rich a tradition!