[TulliusCicero]

When I read

> ender's game is nazi apologia

in your comment, I was pretty sure that there would be a point in the quoted article where the author went from reasonable background/description, to instantly jumping to a completely nonsensical argument, and I was not disappointed.

> The difference between Peter and Ender is not in what they do, but in what they are

What? That's incredibly dumb.

This like saying a serial killer, and someone who shot a person who shot at them first, are the same thing. You can't just ignore context because it's convenient to your argument. By this reasoning, anyone who's not an avowed pacifist -- who wouldn't even fight back against naked aggression -- is equivalent to the worst murderer.

Maybe Ender went too far, but he did act in self-defense, against other kids who tried to maim or even kill him. Peter killed animals because he wanted to. That is nowhere close to the same thing.

Like, does the author of this piece seriously believe that self defense is never justified or something?

> Ender is “kind” and “good” even when his actions seem to belie that characterization.

Ender is ruthless against those who go out of their way to threaten him, that's true enough, but in the context of the story he has an awful lot of threats to his life for a little kid! Brutally fighting back is completely understandable. What else would you even expect him to do, in that situation?

If you're gonna find fault with the story here, pointing out that the adults are all complicit in letting Ender be abused, sure that's bad and dumb. But given that they're doing that, blaming Ender for desperately fighting back is utter nonsense.

[Aeolun]

I don’t know. What Ender does always seems fairly reasonable to me.

[throwqwerty]

>Maybe Ender went too far, but he did act in self-defense

the book is literally about a kid committing genocide and the reasons why he should feel okay about it (ie a pretext). or did you not read it through to the end?

[p_l]

The final battle scene in the book, at least in the old polish release I had, stuck with me for a long time.

Because Ender did the suicide strike thinking it was simulation, and thus he would be finally released from the program as dangerous.

It's literally an attempt to get released from service on medical discharge. He was only told he was operating real world warships after the fact. Before that scene, he assumed (and while there were possible hints, at that point he is increasingly getting less mentally stable) that it was graduate school equivalent of Battle School - as that's what everyone excluding Bean (and that is AFAIK only in the retconny later novels) was told.

[Gollapalli]

Did you read the sequel?

He literally spends the rest of his life making up for that mistake as speaker for the dead.

[p_l]

And he literally does the final genocide in hope that it would grant him expulsion on medical grounds - because he didn't know the battles were real.

[newen]

Speaker for the Dead is the book that the author originally wanted to write. Ender's Game was written as a prequel for it.

[Zanni]

To clarify, yes, Speaker for the Dead is the book Card wanted to write, but he found he had to write Ender's Game first to lay the groundwork. And he did. He wrote them in that order (Ender, Speaker). A prequel usually refers to a work produced later that comes chronologically before.

[newen]

I see, thanks for clarifying.

[gatorek]

Seriously? I have read them in exactly that order. In comparison with Speaker for the Dead, the Ender's Game seems little childish...

[teekert]

Maye because Ender is a child there and the other books are him growing up and being wise.

[TulliusCicero]

I read through to what I quoted.

What an author starts spouting completely nonsense arguments, why would I waste my time continuing further?

The author apparently thinks self defense is as bad as killing for the heck of it, if they're that dumb, why would I be interested in their moral judgment for anything else?

[detaro]

Tbh, I think it shows that you went into the link looking for something to fail it over. I don't think the author makes the claim you think they are making.

[TulliusCicero]

Yes, I expected that it would make a nonsense argument based on the description of the person linking to it, and that's what happened.

Look, it's them that made the argument. I even quoted the relevant parts. They're clearly arguing that Ender is aggressive and bad because he's violent in response to violence against him. Self defense apparently doesn't count.

If they want to make an argument that makes sense instead, they should do that.

[detaro]

Yes, you quoted a section that describes how the characters in the book view (and struggle with) the fact that the main character kills violently and how that is justified by the different circumstances. And then somehow claimed that the author describing that means the author thinks circumstances don't ever matter.

[TulliusCicero]

Uhh, no. You can even look at other parts of it and see:

> Card thus labors long and hard in Ender’s Game to create a situation where we are not allowed to judge any of his defined-as-good characters’ morality by their actions. The same destructive act that would condemn a bad person, when performed by a good person, does not implicate the actor, and in fact may be read as a sign of that person’s virtue.

"The same destructive act"? Notice again how the author apparently thinks fighting in self defense is the same 'act' as fighting because you want to hurt somebody.

Maybe next up they can argue that target shooting is the same as shooting a person in the face, because either way you're shooting a gun!

> even when his actions seem to belie that characterization.

This isn't just the author asserting how the characters see Ender, it's also clear that the author thinks that "[Ender's] actions belie that characterization". But that's only true if you view fighting back against bullies as not good, if you view self defense as unkind.

Thus, the author's argument is clear: self defense is not acceptable. They won't come out and say it explicitly, because that would make it obvious how dumb the argument is, but that is nevertheless what they're asserting. Instead, they argue it while pretending not to.

Are you sure you're reading the same article? Their argument of "context doesn't matter, only the bare literal act" is quite clear.

[Jarwain]

Reasons why he should feel Okay with it? He was Tricked into committing genocide, and the story goes on to show that the aliens weren't bad and how the entire war stemmed from the type of misunderstandings that come from interacting with an alien consciousness.

It's far from being a book that advocates for or otherwise encourages genocide

[TulliusCicero]

By this reasoning, if tomorrow we found out that the violent video games we've been playing controlled robots somewhere killing real people, that would make everyone who played those games ruthless killers who should at the very least be imprisoned for life, if not executed.

[Talanes]

The whole point is that genocide is such a horrible act that while all of the adults are pushing for it, none of them are willing to actually make the call. Ender was manipulated into committing genocide so that the adults could all tell themselves that it was someone else who did it.

And he never feels okay about it. He reaches a sense of peace with the overwhelming guilt, but only by giving his life entirely to that purpose.

[irjustin]

> or did you not read it through to the end?

Have you asked why he should feel okay about it?

The parent comment explicitly says context was ignored. He committed genocide/xenocide because he was literally being deceived and then spends the next 2 books regretting and making up for a move he wasn't responsible for.

The literal example here would be playing any video game but instead of it just being a game you were literally killing whatever the game is about.

In that case, wouldn't you feel that you were wrongly deceived? That you're not truly a killer? But in your eyes and the article's... you absolutely are a killer. 100% responsible and the book is wrong for teaching otherwise.

Pretty obtuse to think hold such a belief.