[lvturner]

Saw this a few times on HN, but immediately thought of it and feel its an appropriate response to your friend.

"I thought using loops was cheating, so I programmed my own using samples. I then thought using samples was cheating, so I recorded real drums. I then thought that programming it was cheating, so I learned to play drums for real. I then thought using bought drums was cheating, so I learned to make my own. I then thought using premade skins was cheating, so I killed a goat and skinned it. I then thought that that was cheating too, so I grew my own goat from a baby goat. I also think that is cheating, but I’m not sure where to go from here. I haven’t made any music lately, what with the goat farming and all."

[joefourier]

While clever, I’m not a fan of this argument as it ignores the fact that each of steps are different things requiring different skills. Putting samples together is more arranging music, while creating the notes is composing. After that, you have sound design, playing an instrument, making an instrument yourself...

Sure none of these are “cheating”, but someone somewhere has to do each of those things, and the further down the chain you go, the more “control” you get over your sound and composition. The law of diminishing returns of course hits at some point (although someone may argue that their breed of goats has a certain sound they can’t get any other way).

It’s the same thing in programming: someone chaining together libraries may eventually run into a point where there’s nothing out there that does exactly what they need. That doesn’t mean it’s not your work unless you’ve written the compiler yourself, or have your own fab in your garage, it just means you have to be aware of the degree of control you give up the higher level you go.

[tomxor]

It doesn't sound like you are in disagreement, the parent story is just a flowery expression of the diminishing returns (control), the further you go.

As you say, the reality of it is that there are thresholds, for some where the benefit cost ratio is poor enough few will break through it from a higher level use... and then there are lower ratio thresholds in between where you will get various proportions of experienced people who want a little more control (in different directions) breaking through.

But even with those thresholds (in this case one IC vs another IC), it's arbitrary and subjective, you are just choosing to spend your time and effort in a different way.

[golergka]

> Putting samples together is more arranging music, while creating the notes is composing.

Really depends on what's the length of samples and how exactly are you working with them. With whole musical phrases (as used in 90s hip-hop and french house, for example), it's really more like arranging. But when you cut those very samples just a little bit shorter, and start playing MPC pads like an instrument, I'd argue you switch back to composing.

[JNRowe]

Love that description.

In many ways watching people describe and choose their spot in the "grab package" <-> "herd goats" spectrum is my favourite part of AoC each year¹. The squirming some people choose to do when justifying their place in a table of magic internet points is a lot of fun.

Edit: Should add I'm one of those squirmers too, often when I'm thinking about networkx/numpy/etc.

1. https://adventofcode.com/

[perl4ever]

I have found satisfaction at least for now in going in the other direction - what can I do with a locked down computer that has absolutely no software installation authorized and only has the standard software for any non-technical employee. In other words, everything that can't be done in that environment is now "herding goats" to me. Sometimes I am tempted to try to get developer-type privileges, but I've resisted so far.

[JNRowe]

Is there an endgame beyond empathy for "normal" users? I'm curious about whether you're doing this to learn more or perhaps with the intent on spotting opportunities to make things better or some other reason entirely.

I can personally see the discussion of how to work with a basic installation being worthwhile, as I know I'm guilty of "why don't you just $bunch_of_experience_option?". However, I don't think I'd want to try to do actual work without the tools I have and the tools I make.

[perl4ever]

For an auto metaphor, suppose you were really good at building race cars, and then you set out to make an entry for the 24 hours of LeMons.[1] Some people do that. I never have been a blank sheet of paper/greenfield sort of person and I always lose interest in computer games if I have unlimited resources.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Hours_of_LeMons

[dmitripopov]

I see what you are talking about, but your parable has another side that no one sees - the guy learned a lot of different things in the process :) For people who enjoy learning and exploration it is the true meaning of the whole thing, not a written tune.

[dahart]

> your parable has another side that no one sees - the guy learned a lot of different things in the process

No one sees?! What do you mean? That’s literally the punch line of the joke.

Of course ‘learning things’ is a secondary benefit, especially if that’s actually one of the goals you specifically set out for. Still I’ve personally watched programmers live that joke, and overengineer something that could take a day into a year long project, to solve a problem they didn’t have. I’ve seen it enough and cause enough problems that I try hard to write code with specificity and stick to the problem at hand. So much so that I have an actual problem with not abstracting things soon enough. ;)

[dmitripopov]

Well, I just thought you are giving a negative connotation to it while I think there's nothing wrong if the thing is your hobby :)

[okareaman]

Beautiful. The law of diminishing returns means that the perfect is the enemy of the good (or something like that.)

[sjwright]

The lesson is that when it comes to personal pursuits, there are no bright lines between doing something “properly” or “cheating”. It truly is all in the eye of the beholder.

[coupdejarnac]

If your goal is to reduce the problem domain from hardware and software to just software, then yeah, using a chip with most of the hardware work done for you is fine.

Looking at Ben Eater's youtube channel, there seems to be a healthy demand for building more authentic '80s 8-bit systems.

If one's goal is to learn about how to build an 8-bit computer, using a microcontroller is not going to be an edifying experience unless the goal is to do something mostly in the software domain like write a simple OS.

While I think your parable is good advice for getting a business going quickly, it's not appropriate for deep dive learning or hacking.

[lalalandland]

Yes, it's silly to be gate keeping like this, with some purist fantasy. If OP friend like to role play as a engineer from 1981, that is cool. But he has to realize that that is not everybody's goal.