[GrantSolar]

This is one of the bigger leftist critiques of UBI - instead of enacting meaningful change to the system, gifting the people just enough money to keep them docile and prevent upsetting the ruling class and, like you said, weaponising for further political gain

[krapp]

One problem is the implication behind that critique, that the poor should rather be kept poor until their anger is useful for class warfare (the political gain of the left.)

I sympathize with the left far more than the right but both sides seem perfectly happy to consider the proletariat as sheep when it serves their purpose. As far as I'm concerned, UBI would be meaningful change to the system.

[GrantSolar]

>the implication behind that critique, that the poor should rather be kept poor until...

I think it's more that UBI will result in at best a brief reprieve from poverty. It won't be a long-term or even medium-term solution as it only treats the symptom, not the cause.

While I can celebrate anyone promising/implementing welfare programs such as UBI and the huge social benefits they bring, I am cautious of how these will play out politically.

>both sides seem perfectly happy to consider the lower classes as sheep when it serves their purpose

Just want to throw out that I disagree with this

[krapp]

An at least brief reprieve from poverty would be better than nothing. We can treat the symptoms and the cause under UBI, just as we could do now, with the existence of welfare (such as it is in the US) and the minimum wage. I don't think these positions are mutually opposed.

Yes, UBI can be weaponized politically, and probably will be. But the current system is already weaponized. If it's turned against people hard enough, that only works in the left's favor. If not, it at least suggests that some degree of meaningful change is possible within the system.

>Just want to throw out that I disagree with this

Fair enough.

[maigret]

If that was true there would be more protests in the US than in France. I think the exact opposite of that is true.

[GrantSolar]

Sorry, I don't follow. Could you expand?

[maigret]

My point was that, in France, where you have a strong social net that offers everyone to subsist, have a place to leave and health insurance, is not preventing people from protesting for more rights - at the opposite.

[zajio1am]

It is interesting that you frame it as 'leftist critique' instead of 'far-leftist critique'. As historically, exactly that kind of arguments were used by far left (communists) aginst moderate left (social democrats) and was a major reason for their split in 1910s.