[ccktlmazeltov]

> And yet they're drawn to the position because of the emotional overtones that are ubiquitous in coverage of the subject.

or because they are tools made to kill?

Let's be honest this is not a good comparison (to stay polite). Not having guns at worst would force a group of people to find a new and less dangerous hobby, while not having encryption pretty much puts people's lives at risk in many countries and make having a democracy much more difficult.

[SpicyLemonZest]

Surely you see that this is the same kind of emotional appeal the original commenter is decrying. "Tools made to kill" and "less dangerous hobby" aren't dispassionate statements of fact.

[post_below]

Both of those statements are factually correct.

[Thriptic]

I don't think they are really. Guns are tools made to inflict kinetic damage. They can inflict damage on humans, damage on animals, or damage on targets.

That may seem like pedantry, but a huge number of guns aren't design to be used in anger, fired at a living thing, or will ever be purchased for the intent of firing at a living thing. I own a shotgun exclusively for shooting at clay targets for example, and I have no intention of ever pointing it at a living thing. Firearms used for sport are frequently explicitly designed for use in sport rather than being designed for combat, self defense, or hunting.

[heretoo]

> I have no intention of ever pointing it at a living thing

What if you become suicidal? Your current intentions will be subverted by your own emotional state.

[lenkite]

What if you become a paedophile ? Your current intentions (regarding cryptography) will be subverted by your own emotional state. Guns and Crypto are dangerous tools and should not be in the hands of the ordinary citizen since citizens can turn dangerous. Think of the children!

[wizzwizz4]

Even assuming the ridiculous premise, most paedophiles don't abuse children. (And not all child abusers are paedophiles, either, but that's getting into the really dark side of human psychology.) Support structures are important, as with all such things. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-41213657

[nine_k]

You need to also consider knives, rope, large bodies of water, tall structures, etc. They all can be used for suicide.

If you want perfect safety from suicidal tendencies, consider going under a 24/7 watch and having your hands tied. For some extremely severe cases, this may be warranted.

But there's no reason to subject the rest of the population to the same measures.

[komali2]

All the things you mention serve actual purposes other than killing.

A gun is designed to kill. Anything else you do with it is just practice to kill more effectively with it.

[Thriptic]

I happen to have access to a biomedical research lab and medication / chemicals that could kill me with a very high success rate if I decided to go that route, so it's not a relevant concern.

[girvo]

Genuine question: what’s the difference between a gun made for shooting clay targets and one that can kill someone?

[nybble41]

What's the difference between a kitchen knife and one that can be used to kill someone? Nothing, you can kill someone with a kitchen knife—but that isn't what it was designed for. There are guns designed to kill unsuspecting people at a distance (sniper rifles), there are guns designed to be carried for self-defense, and there are guns designed for hunting or target sports. Any of them could be used to commit a murder, but that doesn't mean they are all equally suited for it. In the end a gun is just a tool. It's the intent of the person using the tool that counts.

[K0SM0S]

I think you pretty much nailed the bottom of that argument. I'd like to point out one thing: from a country¹ in which firearms are heavily restricted (non-law enforcers can't carry), there is little stigma if any on recreational shooting², and it's certainly a right to own such firearms at home. You just can't take them to work or to do shopping, only at the shooting range or equivalent, with precautions like partial disassembly, unloaded, in a bag... Normal practice.

So it's really not about weapons in and of themselves that the rest of the world is puzzled about this American debate, not about the supposed cruelty of everyday people (nobody believes that). It's really about the fact that carrying a gun to work is a very slippery slope, even if the gun is in the car. Same idea with not carrying dangerous explosives if you can help it, the risk is too high compared to most perceived benefits.

I think the self defense argument is very much biased by the fact that once others have guns, you may feel threatened not carrying yourself; conversely if no one carries you'd rather it stayed that way... It's a snake eating its own tail from both sides.

The truth is, it's actually not normal people carrying that kills a lot in the US (although child accidents are statistically too high compared to eg Europe or Asia iirc). It's really the problem of gangs etc. Most lethal shootings are statistically related to someone's lifelong "job", not everyday honest people. But removing guns from wide circulation means we don't have e.g. teens shooting others anywhere else in the world, nowhere near the same magnitude, which is a troubling fact. Indeed, it's the person that holds the gun that counts, and young minds shouldn't have access to guns in that regard. Not enough control yet, it's a biological fact.

[1]: France, but it's the same culture in most western EU countries afaik. Not sure about those closest to the Russian federation but I'm inclined to think they generally agree with us on the matter.

[2]: Hunting is certainly midly popular here in rural areas, and those who voice criticism are 99% about the animal cruelty angle, they couldn't care less if the killing was done with knifes or arrows instead. The gun angle is just not a thing in most countries where guns are effectively banned from regular society but obviously totally accessible for sports: it's OK, really.

[Thriptic]

I'm not entirely sure what you are asking. If you're asking "what's the difference between a shotgun optimized for sport and a shotgun optimized for military / police / self-defense use?" then the answer is configuration mostly. Shotguns are pretty crude instruments so they don't vary much in terms of actual mechanism between use cases. The most obvious difference would be ammunition capacity. Sport shotguns (depending on the sport and exceptions apply) typically carry between 2 and 4 shells because trap / skeet only require you to fire 2 successive shots at any given time. "Combat" shotguns have much higher ammunition capacities so you aren't reloading as frequently.

Additionally sport shotguns typically have long barrels (I believe because pushing the sight farther away from the shooter's eye has been shown to improve accuracy among other things), are heavy because weight is less of a concern, and typically lack accessory mounting points (eg for ammunition holders, flash lights, other shit) because they are unnecessary and throw off the balance of the gun which may reduce accuracy. Competition guns are also frequently configured to fire a different type of ammunition which produces less recoil for the user and puts less strain on the shoulder over long bouts of practice. This ammo may do less damage to what it hits, so it would be less appropriate if you are trying to kill a person or a large game animal.

If you are asking "what's the difference between any gun optimized for sport vs one optimized for killing things?" then what you're effectively asking is "what's the difference between a computer optimized for hitting an overclocking record vs a server optimized for running your mission critical thing in production?" Nuanced rifle differences are out of my wheel house as I don't shoot rifles much, but the biggest difference from a design philosophy perspective is the performance:reliability trade off. If your rifle fails in a competition setting, that sucks but you're not going to die. If your rifle fails in combat while someone is shooting at you, you have real problems. Like servers, rifles designed for military or self defense use are therefore designed to operate correctly under a much wider range of conditions because they can't fail, and they sacrifice accuracy to meet that requirement. The most obvious example would be the AK-47 which is notoriously reliable to the point where it's a meme due to its simple mechanism and loose tolerances, and not nearly as accurate in standard configuration as many other rifles, even other rifles used by armed forces.

The other obvious difference is fire modes in a military setting (this is obviously context dependent). There is no need for burst fire (one trigger pull firing multiple bullets) or full auto fire (holding down the trigger yields continuous fire) in a competition setting because those fire modes are mostly used for scaring your enemy and getting them to stop shooting at you. You're not interested as much in hitting them, just suppressing them. You don't need to suppress a paper target because a paper target isn't shooting back at you.

If I look at your question literally, it's a hard question to answer because anything can be used to kill someone. What's the difference between a tank and a truck that a terrorist uses to run over people?

[AnthonyMouse]

"Black people are more likely to score lower on IQ tests" and "illegal immigrants are more likely to be involved in drug trafficking" are also factually correct. It is possible for a statement to be factually correct and politically inflammatory at the same time.

[komali2]

The rub is in definition, though. You've assumed far too much with your "factual statements," specifically on what does "black people" mean, what even is an "iq test," or what an "illegal immigrant" or "drug trafficking" is. That's why those are not really even factual statements but are quite politically inflammatory. The people who feel they're wrong may think they're facts but can't figure out why they aren't, not realizing that they aren't actually facts at all.

[AnthonyMouse]

The statements are true under common and reasonable definitions of those terms.

And you can do the same thing for anything. I could easily contend that "less dangerous hobby" is factually incorrect because there are plenty of more dangerous hobbies not being prohibited, like drag racing or skydiving. And we had the whole discussion in the other thread about "tools made to kill."

[ethbro]

For purposes of this thread, "emotionally inflammatory."

[garmaine]

Guns are tools made to kill though. That's literally what they are: killing tools. Do they have any other purpose?

[AnthonyMouse]

Sport (marksmanship), crime deterrent (possible without actual violent use), a store of value (physically small high-value durable good with generally stable value over time), craftsmanship (manufacturing), collecting, psychological security blanket for vulnerable individuals, etc.

[rytill]

Those are just results of its purpose and of human nature. It’s not a very compelling list.

People assault for sport too. And people would make all kinds of illegal things for craftsmanship if they could.

Store of value seems particularly like a stretch.

They are tools for killing. To what extent is it correct to regulate them is the question.

[AnthonyMouse]

Shooting at a target isn't killing anything, it's a competition the same as golf or basketball or archery. People who collect firearms commonly keep them in a display case like vintage toys or sports memorabilia; it's like arguing that the sole purpose of a baseball signed by Babe Ruth is to play catch with. In many cases people manufacture firearms for the exclusive purpose of making a political statement about the ease of doing so (e.g. with a 3D printer) and the manufactured product is never actually intended to be used.

If you want some economic evidence of purpose other than killing, notice that the vast majority of firearms are never actually used to kill anyone, nor do their owners desire to kill anyone with them. Then explain how their owners nonetheless derived enough value from them to justify paying hundreds to thousands of dollars for them.

> People assault for sport too.

Assault is already, independently illegal.

A law against killing people with guns is redundant (killing people is already illegal), but a law against not killing people with guns is incoherent, so what evil is left to prohibit that isn't already illegal?

> And people would make all kinds of illegal things for craftsmanship if they could.

But they can, that's sort of the point. Since individuals can manufacture them on their own regardless, isn't it better that they be available to the people who follow the law and not just the people who don't?

> Store of value seems particularly like a stretch.

There seem to be a fair number of second hand firearms dealers who make their living from it.

[lukifer]

It was a light-bulb moment when I learned that in medieval warfare, battles were relatively rare, and the primary mechanism of military force was the siege: camp outside and block trade/supplies, until the enemy runs out of food and gives up. Even if one has overwhelming force, fighting is expensive and risky, whether for an army or an individual [0]. This pattern replicates throughout nature: many animals develop signals to proxy their fighting strength without having to fight, due to the risk it would incur (such as growling as a signal of chest cavity size).

It's perfectly cogent to own a gun, not with any intent to kill, but to establish a power dynamic, such that one could respond with deadly force if necessary [1]. This is how America projects its military power across the world, through 400+ bases and several aircraft super-carriers, with the majority of that force going unused. It's still a projection of power, and still subject to moral scrutiny; but having a military base parked outside Qatar, just in case, is not the same thing as "that military base is a tool for invading Qatar".

I get your core point; weapons being deadly is the whole point, and even weapons acquired purely for deterrence can lead to a positive feedback loop of escalation, resulting in violence that would not have occurred otherwise. And humans are not purely rational actors; there's a simple numbers game, where the more guns are in a populace, the deadlier a small number of maniacs or extremists are going to be. It's not a problem we should ignore, and it's frustrating that NRA hardliners seem to be fine with doing so.

I don't own a gun, and I'm in favor of something resembling "common sense gun control", as well as other harm reduction interventions (particularly universal mental health care); at the same time, I consider effective self-defense to be an inalienable human right (I don't declaw cats, either). But to say that guns exist only to kill is a little overly simplistic: to take another example, North Korea acquired nukes not to use them, but to dissuade the U.S. but ever thinking about instigating regime change. They know using them can only result in their immediate obliteration; yet owning them tilts the game-theoretic dynamic in their favor.

[0] Aircraft and drones somewhat change the dynamic on this, but we can consider those out of scope in a 2A debate.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credible_minimum_deterrence

[rytill]

What you're getting at, I think, is that the statement "guns are a tool to kill" is a little too simplistic to be helpful.

You might event continue such a statement with something like "guns are a tool to kill, but it's not clear that their existence has lead to more killing than if they didn't exist."

[komali2]

The things you said all revolve around the gun's primary purpose and only reason for existing, which is to kill.

Target practice is just practicing getting better at killing.

Crime deterrent is threatening to kill.

It's valuable because it's good at killing.

It's a well crafted killing machine.

It makes one feel less vulnerable because you hold the ability to instantly kill someone.

Why deny the gun's purpose is to kill? It seems to imply you think it's bad to kill people, as if we could demonstrate that yes guns are only good at killing people, it might risk your guns being taken away? Seems the strongest rhetorical position is one that argues in favor of the gun's ability to kill and why people should be allowed to have that ability.

[wizzwizz4]

I'd argue that target practice isn't just getting better at killing (but perhaps it is for many people). And, as a result, "well-crafted killing machine" isn't necessarily all there is to it -- though only specific kinds of guns are good for shooting targets and not killing people. All your other points are valid.

[komali2]

Yes, there are target only guns (Olympics comes to mind), but I bet you still would follow all tenants of gun safety while handling one of those guns...

I enjoy target and clay shooting but I believe they are simply metaphors for the gun's original purpose which is to shoot living things.

We're kinda off track the original topic here though :p

[AnthonyMouse]

> Target practice is just practicing getting better at killing.

Seems pretty farfetched given that nearly all of the people who shoot targets neither intend to nor actually do ever kill anyone.

Would you argue that the purpose of a baseball is killing people because it's practicing getting better at throwing a rock? To say nothing of javelin.

> Crime deterrent is threatening to kill.

Would you say that the purpose of the criminal justice system is to put people in jail and it fails if it manages to deter crime and then doesn't actually have to put people in jail?

> It's valuable because it's good at killing.

Why can't it be valuable because it's good for target shooting or for deterring crime?

> It's a well crafted killing machine.

That's just assuming the conclusion. If it's a killing machine then it's a well crafted killing machine, but if its purpose is to look pretty (or look scary) or satisfy local cultural norms or make a political statement, then it's a well crafted political statement.

> It makes one feel less vulnerable because you hold the ability to instantly kill someone.

Which is a similar situation to serving as a deterrent -- it succeeds even when you don't use it to kill anyone. Especially then.

> Why deny the gun's purpose is to kill? It seems to imply you think it's bad to kill people, as if we could demonstrate that yes guns are only good at killing people, it might risk your guns being taken away? Seems the strongest rhetorical position is one that argues in favor of the gun's ability to kill and why people should be allowed to have that ability.

Killing might be a purpose of a gun, but it's being alleged that it's the only purpose. Which still doesn't make sense given that it's mostly not what they're actually used for in practice.

Killing people isn't even a purpose in general, or if it is then it's a bad one. A purpose is a motive, not a means. Nobody sane has a motive of killing for no reason. Plenty of sane people have a motive of winning a sporting event or not getting robbed.

This is why "guns are for killing" is political rhetoric. Killing is bad and everybody knows it, so if guns are only for killing then guns are bad. But if guns are for deterring crime or similar, deterring crime is good and not deterring crime is bad. It's a much harder motive to argue against because it's a legitimate motive, whereas killing for no reason is just a strawman.

[komali2]

These baseball arguments always fall flat in the face of actual danger to population imo. Yes, a gun is designed to kill, and regardless of caliber, until you get down to a pellet gun, it is especially good at it.

The baseball comparison doesn't stand: in the hands of an adult, a great deal of work is involved in killing someone with a baseball. Threatening to kill someone with a baseball doesn't immediately give you power of life and death over them - they can fight back or run. And in the hands of a child, the baseball is harmless, no matter the harm the child wants to mete with it.

A gun is none of those things. A toddler can kill in an instant with a gun, and this has happened, and will continue to happen.

Guns are for killing. Of all the things just about any American to handle, they are the best at killing. If we stop letting people walk around with guns, there's nothing they could carry instead with even close to the level of accessible (a toddler could use it) killing power.

Like I said before, maybe try acknowledging that and arguing from their killing power perspective? I think there are strong 2fa arguments regarding the ability of minorities to defend themselves that center around the gun's design in making it extremely easy to kill people.

[tony101]

Killing in self-defense is justifiable. Encryption is designed to hide information. Hiding information for privacy is also justifiable.

[zeofig]

Guns aren't "killing for self defense". They're killing machines which lie around for a long time, and may have many effects one of which is self defense.

[tal8d]

> ... and make having a democracy much more difficult.

Are you unaware of the fact that this is exact argument made by those who argue for the 2nd amendment? While you could argue that they are fear-mongers, with the tree of liberty talk, you can't then go on to talk about a threat to democracy by way of the government's constant violation of citizen's other rights (the 4th in this case). Emotional appeals are much easier for the confiscation proponents, because nobody expects internal consistency from someone waving a bloody shirt.

[belorn]

Just because two people use the same argument does not mean they have both the same validity.

Almost all democracies gives the government an exclusive right to violence. The government can order the army and police to shot people, while every citizen are forbidden to make a similar decision. The exception that exist are narrow defined and up to the legal system to decide per case if a decision to kill by a citizen can be forgiven based on circumstances.

Almost no democracies gives the government an exclusive right to private communication and private secrets. Countries which governments does claim an exclusivity in this area are called totalitarian and is seen by many as the contradicting in terms to the definition of democracy.

[tal8d]

Yes, I understand that logical correctness is different from universal truth. But using the exact same formula to argue two mutually exclusive points in the same breath is a very good way of demonstrating why emotionally driven arguments yield poor results.

> ...exclusive right to violence.

I know that duty to retreat is much more common outside of the US, but I don't think any democracy demands that you just die in the face of a determined attacker - which would be required in your "exclusive right" characterization. While the classic way of describing it is a "monopoly on violence", the scenario you describe would be better characterized as an exclusive right to classify murder and manslaughter.

> ...exclusive right to private communication and private secrets.

Because that would be impossible, as they can't exclusively have a right to information that you generated - at worst it would be a shared right. The US does claim shared rights to everything that is possible though: the moment you share that information with anyone they claim that right - 3rd party doctrine.

Your two points would have better symmetry if you added that bit about the definition of democracy onto the end of both. That would make it easier to spot the fact that you've just made the exact same "threat to democracy" argument I just replied to.

[throwaway17_17]

I would argue that for the US, the textually unqualified 2nd amendment right to bear arms is clearly a more exclusive right than a citizens ‘right to privacy’ in person, possession, or communication than what is granted by the 4th amendment.

The 4th amendment was written with the express intent that it only protects you when the government (embodies as the judicial branch) feels it should. Also, given the past 200+ years of jurisprudence on the 2nd and 4th amendments, I’d say that the 2nd amendment is absolutely a stronger guarantee than the 4th. There may be some right to privacy read into the text of the Bill of Rights, but that right is not universal and not inalienable by the government.

[Igelau]

> The exception that exist are narrow defined and up to the legal system to decide per case if a decision to kill by a citizen can be forgiven based on circumstances.

That's exactly right. It's a rare, exceptional case that someone really has to defend their life with lethal force. If you must but legally can't, how free are you?

It's an even rarer case that you would absolutely need unbreakable end-to-end encryption. So yeah, it's the same argument, and you're right that one is less valid than the other.

[throwaway17_17]

The number of injuries per year due to firearms (including homicides and suicides) in America is 106,000 approx. The percentage of firearm deaths including suicides is slightly less than 2% of total deaths. Those are barely significant figures. Less than .03% of Americans are effected by those 106,000 firearm incidents. There were 39,773 firearm deaths total in 2017 while there were 47,600 opioid causes deaths in the same year. And that is with an estimated 393 million small arms in the country.

I’m not claiming that these deaths do not matter, I’m just saying that the impact of firearms is much more prominently discussed than other causes of death. I find it very much in line with the emotional pleas against encryption.

[wyager]

Are you willing to take a bet on what fraction of guns sold to civilians have been used in a homicide?

If you’re going to insist on a teleological argument, you might as well use the same standard we use for other tools: how people actually end up using them. No rational person describes knives as “tools to stab people” even though this is part of the historical basis for their development. Instead, the vast majority of knives are used to cut food or spread butter or open boxes. Indeed, these are all more plausible descriptions of what a knife is “for”, just like target shooting or hunting food is a much more plausible description of what guns are for.

[throwaway17_17]

Just to put some rough numbers on it: - 393,000,000 firearms owned by US citizens

- 39,773 firearm related deaths (including suicide) as a decent base yearly rate [this is the actual 2017 number]

14,542 firearm homicides as a decent base yearly rate [again, actual 2017 number]

[L-four]

Encryption was literally invented to communicate and plan killing people.

[m463]

The earliest known use of cryptography is found in non-standard hieroglyphs carved into the wall of a tomb from the Old Kingdom of Egypt circa 1900 BC. These are not thought to be serious attempts at secret communications, however, but rather to have been attempts at mystery, intrigue, or even amusement for literate onlookers.

Some clay tablets from Mesopotamia somewhat later are clearly meant to protect information—one dated near 1500 BC was found to encrypt a craftsman's recipe for pottery glaze, presumably commercially valuable.

[wl]

I don't trust your source. 1900 BCE is Middle Kingdom, not Old Kingdom.

Also, a lot of those older cryptic hieroglyphs turned out to be in an early Northwestern Semitic language. The idea was apparently that you're going to have spells effective against snakes coming in on ships from Byblos, the spells should invoke the deities they know in the language they know.

https://semiticmuseum.fas.harvard.edu/publications/early-nor...

[humbleMouse]

I suppose you could say the same thing about the internet, and a number of other widely used technologies to come out of ww2 era.

[komali2]

Encryption can be used for a lot of things.

Guns can be used either to kill things, or to practice at getting better at killing things.

[eyegor]

I don't disagree, but the irony is palpable.

> this is not a good comparison

> tools made to kill

> pretty much puts people's lives at risk

[pyuser583]

If end to end encryption became the norm, people would die as a result. Children would be raped, radical groups would spread, etc.

It’s still a good thing. But let’s not pretend there’s no cost.

Freedoms have a price, and that price is often the inability of the state to protect us from malevolent members of society.

That true for guns, and it’s true for encryption.

There’s shared ground between the NRA and EFF.

I just wish more conservative, law-and-order types would realize that.

[tony101]

> "Not having guns at worst would force a group of people to find a new and less dangerous hobby"

No, not having guns at worst would deprive minorities of the ability to protect themselves. It is not only a hobby; it is also an effective means of self-defense.

[nemothekid]

>No, not having guns at worst would deprive minorities of the ability to protect themselves.

Are we talking about America? Where those same minorities are shot for holding toy guns?

[tony101]

Well, I know many minorities who carry guns to protect themselves. Both racial minorities and sexual minorities (LGBT+).

Racism and police violence are real problems that need to be addressed, but taking away guns is not the solution.

[gonational]

Not having a gun puts your life at risk, if you encounter a deadly threat beyond your ability to defend against.

For 110 pound woman this might be a large man who wants to rape her, or for a 200 pound man capable of reasonable self-defense this might mean somebody attempting to rob him at knife point.

[girvo]

And yet so many other developed countries are significantly less violent than the US, despite having far fewer guns in the hands of civilians

[gonational]

I wonder what things they have in common, if guns don’t seem to be a factor.

Maybe we could figure out whatever that is and work on that, instead of focusing on gun ownership, which demonstrably does not lead to more violence, and in most cases, leads to less violence.

[yellowapple]

Those countries tend to already have better economic safety nets / welfare systems and mental health systems, thus mitigating the reasons why someone might be driven to engage in violent crime (let alone use a gun in said engagement) in the first place.

That is: you're arguing that wet streets cause rain.

[Igelau]

> puts people's lives at risk in many countries and make having a democracy much more difficult.

Funny you should word it that way, because the Founders had a similar attitude about firearms:

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

[fiblye]

I think most people agree that a country needs a well regulated, armed militia to protect itself from nasty invading forces. But arming amateurs and everybody around is about as safe as everybody rolling out their own encryption algorithm.

[Igelau]

The parallelism of the language was notable. You and I do not disagree.