[endorphone]

Masks are considered useless unless you are infected.

This is a bizarre claim that can be countered against the reality that every front-line worker is equipped with a mask.

EDIT: Almost immediately I dropped to -2. Bizarre. Again, every health agency the world over equips health workers who deal with potential COVID-19 with N95+ masks. For some reason people desperately want to clutch onto the notion that it's useless because otherwise..uncomfortable and uncool mask, right? Another poster mentioned that the source didn't even state that about masks, but instead about surgical masks which is a tiny subset.

-Masks prevent aerosolized matter (e.g. a sneeze) from getting at mucous membranes (where it needs to get to yield an infection).

-Masks prevent you from touching your hands to the vulnerable areas of your face. It is effectively a check. So when you touch that door handle leaving the subway station it's far less likely you'll transfer to your mouth or nose, and we naturally touch our face thousands of times a day. Ideally one would have a mental process they follow where you clean thoroughly before taking it off.

Those alone seem like an absolutely enormous win for masks.

https://time.com/5785223/medical-masks-coronavirus-covid-19/

https://www.livescience.com/respirators-prevent-coronavirus-...

I'm certainly not at the point where I'm going to wear a mask in public, but the whole "Hurrr masks don't work at all" seems like either disinformation (e.g. stop buying all the masks because we want them), or people trying to comfort themselves in some bizarre way. Every bit of evidence says otherwise.

The moderation through this is absolutely cartoonish and ignorant.

[kps]

There is terminological confusion. Several things are colloquially called ‘masks’. Surgical masks do not significantly protect the wearer. Filtering facepiece respirators do.¹ ² The parent comment's links refer to N95, so they mean the latter, which are protective (assuming they're worn properly and genuine³).

In addition, the permanent rubber units provide protection when fitted with suitable filters; NIOSH calls these half masks (as distinct from full facepieces, colloquially ‘gas masks’). Where I am, these are still languishing on the shelves⁴, which means that the sort of people who are willing to spend five minutes looking up that P95 ≥ N95 are not yet panicking.

¹ https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npptl/pdfs/UnderstandDifferenceInf...

² https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/personal-protective-equi...

³ https://knowits.niosh.gov/

⁴ https://www.canadiantire.ca/en/pdp/3m-performance-reusable-p...

[obituary_latte]

Those paper masks do little if anything to help the wearer from taking in anything. They do not filter the air—they are far too porous and loose-fitting to filter. They do help prevent the wearer from spreading their germs and touching nose/mouth as you said, but they are not an effective air filtration device.

[endorphone]

As mentioned by others, surgical masks don't filter, but N95 masks absolutely do and are what health care workers are being equipped with.

N95 masks just look like cheap little paper things that you stick on your face.

[obituary_latte]

No they don’t. N95 are solid looking and sometimes have a plastic square housing on the front [0] and surgical masks are paper and pleated [1]

[0] https://images.app.goo.gl/RZAgMSssThGJQrnf6

[1] https://images.app.goo.gl/fRW2dmSxUo1Lm1Dh8

[endorphone]

Yes, yes they do. I can find a million pictures of N95 masks that look just like a cheap little paper mask (not like surgical masks -- not rectangular. Just cheap and like it's made of paper similar to a paper filter).

https://cdn10.bigcommerce.com/s-rxcy1k/products/11668/images...

[obituary_latte]

Now you seem to be just arguing for arguments sake or you’re the kind of person who can’t ever admit to making a mistake or being wrong.

Your linked image in no way objectively looks “just like” cheap square pleated surgical masks. https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/LyoAAOSwMTFeMbmh/s-l300.png

[aldoushuxley001]

Frankly it's your tone that sucks. People initially thought you were referring to the generic medical masks, which are useless unless you're already sick. Being clear in your initial comment would have helped with the confusion.

[endorphone]

My first comment specifically indicated N95 masks.

Remarkably two people have criticized me for not being specific when replying to a blanket (and incorrect) post, when I was actually specific. Amazing.

Then again, the one guy claims that health-care workers only wear masks to protect patients, which is just cartoonishly incorrect (beyond in the abstract "protect patients by the healthcare workers not getting infected" way). To the point that is has to be malicious.

This whole discussion is beyond ignorant. It demonstrates, again, how painful any discussion outside of code is on HN. It's almost as bad as HN talking about AGW (where it turns out 80% of the residents here are deniers). Embarrassing.

[obituary_latte]

It’s not cartoonishly incorrect, in fact it’s mostly correct. Healthcare workers wear masks mostly to protect their patients. They themselves may get some protection from splashing/spurting bodily or other fluids, but not from any airborne contaminants or infections.

> A. Masks were introduced into clinical practice at the beginning of the 20th century to protect patients from microorganisms being expelled from healthcare workers’ respiratory tracts during clinical procedures (Wilson, 2006).

https://www.nursingtimes.net/archive/when-should-staff-wear-...

[endorphone]

Surgical masks. We all know that. Everyone knows that.

N95 masks are distinctly and absolutely worn to protect the wearer. N95 masks are recommended for front-line staff when dealing with viral outbreaks. H1N1, SARS, MERS, and now COVID-19 -- staff wear self-protection masks. During flu outbreaks front-line staff wear N95 for clinics.

This discussion -- what we are talking about -- is COVID-19. Every front-line staff dealing with this, worldwide, is equipped with an N95 mask, or there is a problem. Because when your front-line staff get sick things really break down.

[obituary_latte]

Ok, yeah it sounds like there’s a terminology and context breakdown going on. Typical healthcare setting vs. current COVID-19 setting etc. When you said

> Then again, the one guy claims that health-care workers only wear masks to protect patients, which is just cartoonishly incorrect (beyond in the abstract "protect patients by the healthcare workers not getting infected" way). To the point that is has to be malicious.

it’s not clear which (COVID-19/typical healthcare) setting is being referred to (maybe same for comment you’re responding to as well).

Apologies for any confusion on my part.

[prostheticvamp]

Any post that fails to distinguish between N95 respirators and ASTM 3 surgical masks is too ignorant on this topic to make comments worthy of an upvote.

The Surgeon General, on the other hand, does understand the difference and made an appropriate comment.

[petercooper]

I personally believe that any sort of cover or mask is likely to have an effect even if not 100%. However..:

This is a bizarre claim that can be countered against the reality that every front-line worker is equipped with a mask.

This is not necessarily to protect the front-line workers. Since the incubation period is so long, it makes sense for front-line workers to wear masks to prevent them infecting other people even if it has zero effect in preventing them being infected in the first place.

[Rastonbury]

Agreed. Even before Covid it was standard for healthcare workers to wear masks. They constantly work with patients with compromised immune systems and the like. They could be be asymptomatic and wouldn't risk passing it to someone weaker

[rsync]

"EDIT: Almost immediately I dropped to -2. Bizarre."

I downvoted you because you talked about your downvotes.

If you're keeping track of scoring, HN is perhaps not the right community for you.

[malandrew]

One thing I'm wondering about is "useless in what sense?"

Will they prevent you from getting sick? Unlikely unless it is N95 or even N100 PPE

But I'm been wondering if they are not useless in terms of the speed at which the human body experiences a high viral load.

If only one virus particle gets through that should be enough to infect if it takes root and multiplies, but going from one virus to tons in your body takes times since they have to multiply.

Compare that with an infected person coughing right in your face. In this situation, potentially thousands of virus particles will infect you. In this situation, the viral load your body experiences will climb high quickly.

The faster the viral load climbs the less time your immune system has to be able to develop antibodies and learn to fight off the infection.

I imagine this is not too dissimilar from how vaccines work.

If this is the case, that might explain why Li Wenliang died at 34 years of age. Being at the center of it all, it's likely he was exposed to many more virus particles than the typical person. I imagine this would be enough to trigger a cytokine storm if the viral load got high fast enough.

Disclaimer, IANAE (i am not an epidemiologist), I'm just reasoning from first principles here.