[missosoup]

> If you've been on the receiving end of hate speech or discrimination, you tend to be in the second camp. If you've lived a relatively privileged life in terms of 'fitting in' to the world around you, you tend to think people just need to grow thicker skin.

As someone who fell into category 1 for most of my childhood, I think you have the labels reversed. I think it takes a tremendously sheltered privileged life to get offended by such weak words, especially when they're clearly in jest. Thick skin comes from being exposed to the realities of the world and having an idea of the magnitude and context of e.g. those memes compared to actual hate speech such as I experienced.

It's not a case of 'people who never experienced hate speech think its ok', it's a case of 'people who experienced real hate speech can differentiate it from crude jokes and shitposts'

If anyone remembers Jay Austin and Lauren Geoghegan, the American couple who went to Tajikistan and started video blogging to show that 'all humans are kind' and promptly got murdered by ISIS because they had no idea how dangerous the country was? That's the kind of sheltered privileged demographic that gets offended by shitposting. They have no clue what actual hate or actual danger looks like.

Political correctness and victim culture are pretty unique to the wealthier segments of the West and Europe.

[dmix]

The internet has generated this weird subculture of people who get really really upset at people making jokes. It has a "think of the children" sort of moral panic vibe to it. A lot of it has to do with completely ignoring any context or intention from the source material, which isn't how language works in any other context. Jokes inherently use exaggeration and extreme positions in jest which make them easy targets for misrepresentation.

The even weirder thing is it's finding a reception among weak-willed administrators at various institutions who capitulate under the slightest provocation from these small groups of highly vocal outage mobs (largely because these groups have gotten really good at stirring up controversy, and the low-budget modern internet media is perpetually looking for controversy, legitimate or not).

But if you did a survey of the general population (or the institution's actual customers) instead of just listening to these small mobs you'd find that it really isn't that big of a deal to the vast majority of people. The average person understands context and intent - assuming they heard the original source, not the filtered down unfunny reinterpretations that make the rounds.

I was listening to a "best of Jeff Ross" on Youtube recently and all I could think of was that if any of his stuff had been filtered through these cancel culture people over the last few decades he'd basically be considered the devil instead of one of the funniest people in comedy.

I fear for the future of culture, especially comedy, which thrives in a sort of experimental unfiltered chaos. Maybe it will have to live on in the underground like Samizdat in the Soviet Union.

[Apocryphon]

At what point does criticizing political correctness become as irritating and worthy of shunning as PC scolding itself? Because it's getting to a point where discussions are choked with anti-PC admonishments for every PC statement. It takes two to tangle, after all. Or two to go to culture war.

[0_gravitas]

To be fair in this exchange, the initiating comment was very much a 'pro-PC' statement. The comment got flagged away but it was some strong wording along the lines of "being okay with any politically-incorrect stuff is 'disgusting'". IIRC disagreements and discussions are allowed/encouraged on HN.

[dmix]

We've always had assholes who take things too far in society (Cosmo from Seinfeld/Michael Richards) was one of the first examples. He hasn't had work since and essentially committed social suicide as a response - which I think is becoming the new standard punishment and one that is way out of whack with who we are as humans. We give the appropriate social reaction, but I feel like it goes too far. People make mistakes, they always have.

But we're going through history with a fine-tuned brush and destroying anyone who doesn't fit into our modern conception of socially acceptable.

It'd be dumb to say the PC crowd is always getting it wrong. They do get it right often, but the pitchfork mob career/life ending response is where I part ways.

Where I differ, and I wish more people took a more rational approach to it, is that we're all flawed humans moving through a fucked up world. And we're unfairly destroying manu great minds and contributors in the process using some idealistic and unrealistic standard that none of us will ever achiever.

The end result is that the only people we allow to be leaders are milquetoast, authority-loving, angels who've never experimented in their lives.

This kind of this destroys culture. And the solution is to stop taking these small highly vocal mobs so serious and look at what they are. New idealistic well-intentioned Puritans 2.0.

We need to embrace the chaos and let people get offended again, and move on with our lives, because it really isn't that bad. It's not the way we reach progress.

If you want progress them embrace experimentation of all kinds, not some overton window with an ever growing list of things that are not okay. Or reevaluating the great people in history as if they grew up in the 1990s/early 2000s.

History is littered with mistakes but it's also full of great moments and experimentation and progress. The more we shut down this chaos every time we get offended the less great culture we'll get out of it.

If in the 1700s+ free speech had a clause where no one can get offended ever we'd live in the most boring and backwards world imaginable. The pseudo-progressives are attacking the very freedoms that allows progress to exist. And we need people will balls again to set up and push back. Because we aren't getting it from our university administrators trying to protector their jobs or from corporate pro-diversity divisions that are trying to keep up with culture, so you keep buy their products.

Top-down control of what is and what is not okay from culture is not that solution, period. Not doing that has allowed culture to flourish in the free democratic western states for decades and we're moving backwards, always with the best intentions, but too quickly to realize the side-effects and massive downsides of doing so.

/rant

[Apocryphon]

Every society has different mores and customs, traditions shift over time, and a lot of hand-wringing over PC ends up as tiresome as those who would militantly push PC, cluttering up discussions that have little to nothing to do with these cultural squabbles.

[pjc50]

The people campaigning against the use of those words are usually from the category affected, plus a few thought leaders outside the category who say "maybe we shouldn't be so nasty towards the outsiders". It's the ones outside the category who everyone attacks as "politically correct", because of the unthinkableness of advocating for something that doesn't personally benefit them. The ones inside the denigrated category are usually invisible.

And that's why you do see people campaigning against hate speech outside of the West and Europe - but much more quietly and less visibly, partly because they're not amplified and partly because (as you've noticed) it's genuinely dangerous for them to do so.

There's a Pride in Uganda. It's illegal. You won't find people telling you not to use "f-g" there, because they don't have the power to say so safely.

[qzx_pierri]

You hit the nail RIGHT on the head!!! Only privileged suburbanites care about this type of stuff, because they don’t have any real problems to worry about.

[fenwick67]

I'll remember this next time I'm in South Chicago and all those privelaged people get triggered when I use the N-word

[qzx_pierri]

This is comparing apples to oranges, and you know it.

[powowowow]

> pretty unique to the wealthier segments of the West and Europe.

Thank you for letting me know that Asia has no complex rules about how to address people, and no social consequences for failure to obey those rules.

[missosoup]

If you ever visit any of Asian country, you're in for a bit of a culture shock if you're expecting to see the kind of political correctness that you edited out from this comment earlier.

The top 5 Asian countries by size are Russia, China, India, Kazakhstan, Saudi Arabia. None of them have correctness, in fact all of them are anti-PC and see it as a weakness, especially in China and Russia where westerners are viewed as thin-skinned and weak minded due to PC culture. And in 3 of them people will either express real hate speech or outright violence towards homosexuals.

Your flowery ideals about the world around you are proving the point I was making.

[philwelch]

I think he might have meant "political correctness" less in the sense of "extreme sensitivity about denigrating homosexuals" and more in the sense of "arbitrary rules of social etiquette that people get extremely upset at you for violating".

[missosoup]

He actually reiterates the definition he had in the GP comment but then edited out:

"Political correctness is a right-wing term used when they want to call somebody X, but may face social consequences for doing so."

He thinks terms like 'political correctness' and 'victim culture' are some sort of right-wing slurs for virtuous attributes. He doesn't seem to be aware that this notion doesn't exist for 90%+ of the world's population.

[philwelch]

Sure, but most of the worlds population will still get irrationally upset at you for broaching social and cultural norms, like depicting Muhammad or denigrating the king.

[powowowow]

Exactly; but Missosoup has strongly internalized the idea that neither blacks nor queers deserve respect; as such he truly doesn’t understand why calling them derogatory terms is a bad thing.

To him, it’s insane that a white person could care about a non-white; or a straight could care about a queer. He thinks that’s fake.

It’s sad, but it’s a peek inside the mind of a shitty human being who had abhorrent parents.

[blaser-waffle]

These are 1) very specific norms, and 2) usually owned directly by the culture. Your devout Saudi is going to get upset if you breach etiquette around Islam, but he's not going to go to bat over mild slurs about Hispanics.

Only in the West do they lose their mind defending the honor of people who are not in their in-group. I'm not sure if that is honorable, or just idiotic.

[vxNsr]

It's kinda incredible that you go this far into this thread and still are guilty of what everyone is lamenting.

[denkmoon]

That's not what he said.

[powowowow]

It's absolutely what he said.

Political correctness is a right-wing term used when they want to call somebody X, but may face social consequences for doing so.

It's not a wealthy western phenomena. It's global and it's as old as the hills.

[InGoodFaith]

I wish you would take GP's comment in good faith.

NB: I have lived in these countries, and I am also part of what you may call a "protected group" in western areas. I have come to terms with it.

Counter examples:

1 - PRC's treatment of Uighar muslims, LGBTQ+, Tibetans

2 - Light-hearted potrayals of lolicon, sexual harassment in the entertainment (specifically anime) industry

3 - "No foreigners / (insert specific race group here)" signs in some Japanese establishment that normalize xenophobia.

[strbean]

How does that narrative apply to the example we are discussing in this thread - r/wallstreetbets?

All the objectionable language used there is self-applied. The members of that community call themselves gay, autist, etc. Are they trying to persecute themselves, and evading social standards by calling it comedy?