[windexh8er]

Maybe you're new to the tech/security space, but the majority of companies operate at a loss as they grow and pivot their business. If you follow Cloudflare they've only recently begun to start to sell into the enterprise space with new products as in the SASE space and beyond their traditional DDoS/WAF/encryption plays. Even with those "legacy" products - Cloudflare never heavily sold into large enterprise compared to more notable names in the hardware security space that they now are beginning to compete with. Their business is evolving to include field sales that are aligned to selling in this manner, which is relatively new for Cloudflare (comparatively).

But just stating that Cloudflare is operating in the red currently isn't a justification for anything as it doesn't mean anything positive or negative without understanding their operational business model and targets.

I'm guessing your statement is making a leap by assuming that because Cloudflare is operating at a loss currently that they're going to sell your data against what they publicly state in their privacy policy? For a growth company - that would be one of the dumbest things for them to do. Because if they are caught in that lie they will sink themselves.

[zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC]

No, it clearly says that if they haven't figured out a business model yet, the business model they will end up figuring out might just as well be selling your data, so it's maybe not wise to make the internet depend on them not doing so.

[windexh8er]

Let's be clear here...

The Internet is not dependent on Cloudflare now, or in the future. While FireFox has made a choice (a polarized one), the end user still has the freedom to completely disable DoH and CloudFlare - or choose whatever other service they'd like to use.

Mozilla has an agreement with Cloudflare. Again, it is in Cloudflare's best interest to not break that agreement. If they do, then we can all have that conversation. But just because they could break the agreement does not mean we should jump to any conclusion that they are currently.

It's odd to me that there are a lot of defenders of the status quo that is DNS. Something that is easy to manipulate, easy to profile and scrape passively on the wire (no need to even ask if nobody knows you're doing it), and is generally (with regard to security models) less secure than DoH.

Could Cloudflare nefariously start NXDOMAINing everything? Sure. So could your current ISP (it's likely they already are or already have). Cloudflare hasn't done that. While I have some reservations on the 3 letter agency involvement, that is my only unfounded reservation at this point. Until someone exposes, factually, that Cloudflare has considered selling users data, is selling users data, is planning on monetizing data collected around DNS, etc. I, personally, feel that Cloudflare is offering up a good service. They do allow APNIC to see DNS query data, but not source IP info (go read their privacy policy I linked in this thread).

The Internet has inherent underpinnings of trust. You have to trust your ISP to not MitM your traffic. You have to trust someone to resolve your DNS without manipulation. You have to trust websites to not sell your data back to Facebook, Google, Microsoft, etc. It seems as though DNS data hand waving with regard to Cloudflare is only a fraction of what we should really be concerned about. Do you really want your DNS traffic to continue to be unencrypted? DNS has always been centrally controlled. We have the ease with which we can distribute our DNS queries across multiple providers to not give insight to everything we do all the time. But at the end of the day we have to ask someone where Google is. DNS is the problem, not DoH - at least in my opinion.

You have to trust someone. Cloudflare has done a good job of being a good steward as I see it so far. I'm not saying anyone should trust them blindly or forever by default. But - who do you trust? Who is so free from monetary gain that they should be the single source of truth for all of your DNS queries? Who? I don't see anyone on the playing field that isn't selling something. They're either selling you access to the Internet, or they're selling ads, or they're building up a social graph of you by giving you access to free services.

The Internet is built on trust and that give and take.

[zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC]

> If they do, then we can all have that conversation.

That is not how arguments work.

> But just because they could break the agreement does not mean we should jump to any conclusion that they are currently.

Oh, and straw-maning, too? Brilliant!

[windexh8er]

> That is not how arguments work.

Generally arguments are based on facts. You've provided none. Feel free to show me any facts that support your hypothesis. Technically, I know they're valid. However, debates and arguments are only productive with factual data. Because without it it's all subjective in nature.

> Oh, and straw-maning, too? Brilliant!

I'm not refuting something you didn't bring up. Your argument is akin to the following: you should stop using all computing equipment because the NSA could have compromised all of your devices before you purchased them, all networks you connect to might be selling your user data and MitM your traffic with valid root certificates, and all of the services you use are probably collecting and selling all of your user data to the top bidder. This, all, in direct contradiction to their published terms of service and privacy statements with no known deviations or factual allegations against.

Again, what your saying could be true. Do you have proof or facts that back it up? Can you show beyond a reasonable doubt that what your implying even might be true? And are you choosing to attack Cloudflare only in this regard while hypocritically leveraging other services without the same scrutiny? And I get that we need to start somewhere, but in my personal opinion, DoH improves the attack surface for the majority of end users. I do wish Mozilla would have a very big explanation in the browser that this changed and an easy button that was added allowing people to turn it on if they think that what DoH and Cloudflare offers is worthwhile. So there's that.

[zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC]

> Generally arguments are based on facts. [...]

How is that relevant to your assertion that it is up to you to decide when something needs to be discussed and apparently trying to use that as an argument?

> I'm not refuting something you didn't bring up.

Could you please point to where I said we should conclude that they are currently breaking their agreement, then?