[dahart]

I had a family friend who worked on missiles and drones and other defense systems. He was really one of my dad’s running buddies, and he was a super nice guy, had 4 kids, went to church, etc.

One day, I believe during the Iraq occupation, maybe ~12 or 13 years ago, I asked him very directly how he felt about working on these killing machines and whether it bothered him. He smiled and asked if I’d rather have the war here in the U.S.. He also told me he feels like he’s saving lives by being able to so directly target the political enemies, without as much collateral damage as in the past. New technology, he truly believed was preventing innocent civilians from being killed.

It certainly made me think about it, and maybe appreciate somewhat the perspective of people who end up working on war technology, even if I wouldn’t do it. This point of view assumes we’re going to have a war anyway, and no doubt the ideal is just not to have wars, so maybe there’s some rationalization, but OTOH maybe he’s right that he is helping to make the best of a bad situation and saving lives compared to what might happen otherwise.

[alex_young]

Costa Rica hasn’t had a standing military since 1948. They are in one of the most politically unstable parts of the world and do just fine without worry of invasion.

The US hasn’t been attacked militarily on its own soil in the modern era.

The US military monopoly hasn’t prevented horrific attacks such as 9/11 executed by groups claiming to be motivated by our foreign military campaigns.

I think there is a valid question about the moral culpability of working in this area.

[3pt14159]

It's a valid question, but realistically if Costa Rica were invaded a number of countries would step in to help them. I love Costa Rica, it's one of the most beautiful countries I've been to and I do appreciate the political statement their making, but at the same time they're in a pretty unique situation.

As for the ethics of working on weapons, I think there is a lot of grey when it comes to software. It tends to centralize wealth, since once you get it right it works for everyone. It tends to be dual use, because a hardened OS can be used for both banks and tanks. Even developments in AI are worrying because they're so clearly applicable to the military.

Would I work on a nuclear bomb? No. Would I work on software that does a better job of, say, facial recognition to lessen the likelihood of a predator drone killing an innocent civilian? Maybe. It's not an all or nothing thing.

[kragen]

In the last 40 years, Panama and Grenada were invaded, Honduras had a coup, Colombia had a civil war, Venezuela is currently having a sort of civil war, Nicaragua's government was overthrown by a foreign-armed terrorist campaign, and El Salvador's government sent death squads out to kill its subjects. Nobody stepped in to help any of them except Colombia. Why would Costa Rica be different?

> Would I work on software that does a better job of, say, facial recognition to lessen the likelihood of a predator drone killing an innocent civilian?

The logical extreme of this is Death Note: the person who has the power simply chooses who should die, and that person dies, immediately and with no opportunity for resistance and no evidence of who killed them. Is that your ideal world? Who do you want to have that power — to define who plays the role of an “innocent civilian” in your sketch — and what do you do if they lose control of it? What do you do if the person or bureaucracy to which you have given such omnipotence turns out not to be incorruptible and perfectly loving?

I suggest watching Slaughterbots: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9CO6M2HsoIA

[dahart]

> The logical extreme of this [...] Is that your ideal world?

Clearly not. Would you please not post an extreme straw-man and turn this into polarizing ideological judgement? The post you’re responding to very clearly agreed that war is morally questionable, and very clearly argued for middle ground or better, not going to some extreme.

You don’t have to agree with war or endorse any kind of killing in any way to see that some of the activities involved by some of the people are trying to prevent damage rather than cause it.

Intentionally choosing not to acknowledge the nuance in someone’s point of view is ironic in this discussion, because that’s one of the ways that wars start.

[kragen]

You assert that "software that does a better job of, say, facial recognition to lessen the likelihood of a predator drone killing an innocent civilian" is "middle ground", "not going to some extreme", "trying to prevent damage", and "nuanced".

It is none of those. It is a non-nuanced extreme that is going to cause damage and kill those of us in the middle ground. Reducing it to a comic book is a way to cut through the confusion and demonstrate that. If you have a reason (that reasonable people will accept) to think that the comic-book scenario is undesirable, you will find that that reason also applies to the facial-recognition-missiles case — perhaps more weakly, perhaps more strongly, but certainly well enough to make it clear that amplifying the humans' power of violence in that way is not going to prevent damage.

Moreover, it is absurd that someone is proposing to build Slaughterbots and you are accusing me of "turn[ing] this into polarizing ideological judgement" because I presented the commonsense, obvious arguments against that course of action.

[p1esk]

What's your moral stance on developing defense mechanisms against Slaughterbot attacks? What if the best defense mechanism is killing the ones launching the attacks?

[imtringued]

Real weapons are not like that. They are expensive, they can fail to kill their target and they can also cause collateral damage. If death notes were as easy to obtain as guns there would clearly be an increase in homicides but that's not true with military missiles.

The Slaughterbots video is absolutely awful. First of all quadrocopters have an incredibly small payload capacity and limited flight time. A quadrocopter lifting a shaped charge would be as big as your head and have 5 minutes of flight. Simply locking your door and hiding under your bed would be enough to stop them. The AI aspect doesn't make them more dangerous than a "smart rifle" that shoots once the barrel points at a target.

Do you know what I am scared of? I am more scared of riot police using 40mm grenade launchers with "non-lethal" projectiles who are knowingly aiming them at my face even though their training clearly taught that these weapons should never be used to aim at someone's head. The end result is lost eyeballs and sometimes even deaths and the people who were targeted aren't just limited to those who are protesting violently in a large crowd. Peaceful bystanders and journalists who were not involved also became victims of this type of police violence. [0]

[0] https://www.thelocal.fr/20190129/france-in-numbers-police-vi...

[kragen]

Before you had posted your comment, I had already explained in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22394213 why everything in it is wrong, except for the first line.

As for the first line, you assert that real weapons are expensive, unreliable, and kill unintended people. Except in a de minimis sense, none of these are true of knives. Moreover, you seem to be reasoning on the basis of the premise that future technology is not meaningfully different from current technology.

In conclusion, your comment consists entirely of wishful and uninformed thinking.

[3pt14159]

Eh, there is a difference between the examples you've sited and Costa Rica. They're an ally of the US and a strong democracy focussed on tourism.

> The logical extreme of this is Death Note

I don't really deal with logical extremes. It leads to weird philosophies like Objectivism or Stalinism. In international relations terms, I'm a liberal with a dash of realism and constructivism. I don't live in my ideal world. My ideal world doesn't have torture or murder or war of any kind. It doesn't have extreme wealth inequality or poverty. Unless this is all merely a simulation, I live in the real world. Who has the power to kill people? Lots of people. Everyone driving a car or carrying a gun. Billions of people. It's a matter of degree and targeting and justification and blow-back and economics and ethics and so many other things that it's not really sensible to talk about it.

I'm familiar with the arguments against AI being used on the battlefield, but even though I abhor war, I'm not convinced that there should be a ban.

[dahart]

Of course there is a valid question about the morals of war technology. You are absolutely right about that, and I am not even remotely suggesting otherwise. Like I said, I don’t think I would ever choose to work on it.

There’s a vast chasm in between right and wrong though. There can be understanding of others’ perspectives, regardless of my personal judgement. And there is also a valid question and tightly related question here about the morals of mitigating damage during a military conflict, especially if the mitigation prevents innocent deaths. If there’s a hard moral line between doctors and cooks and drivers and snipers and drone programmers, I don’t know exactly where it lies. Doctors are generally considered morally good, even war doctors, but if we are at war, it’s certainly better to prevent an injury than to treat one.

The best goal in my opinion is no war.

[prostheticvamp]

The US was last attacked in living memory; Pearl Harbor survivors still number > 0.

I will leave the WTC attack on the table, as I’m not interested in a nitpicking tangent about what constitutes an attack in asymmetric warfare vs. “terrorism.”

“The modern era” is usefully vague enough to be unfalsifiable.

[samatman]

In practice, Costa Rica has a standing military. It's just the US military.

Due to the Monroe Doctrine, this is a rational stance for Costa Rica to take. If the US were to adopt this policy, Costa Rica might have to take a hard look at repealing it.

[DavidVoid]

> New technology, he truly believed was preventing innocent civilians from being killed.

Drones and missiles are definitely a step forward compared to previous technology in many regards, but I can't help but be reminded of people who argued that the development and use of napalm would reduce human suffering by putting an end to the war in Vietnam faster.

For an interesting and rather nuanced (but not 100% realistic) view on drone strikes, I'd recommend giving the 2015 movie Eye in the Sky a watch.

Another issue with drone strikes and missiles is "the bravery of being out of range": it's easier to make the decision to kill someone who you're just watching on a screen than it is to look a person in the eyes and decide to have them killed.