[manfredo]

> The rule makes more sense if you think about it in terms of financial crimes; it'd be hard to ever prosecute someone for fraud if they didn't have to give up their books.

I don't think these two situations are the same. When you run a business there are legal requirements to retain data, and provide that data when audited. The police telling you to tell them were you placed a notebook doesn't seem like an equivalent situation. And how can the police prove you wrong if you say you forgot where you placed it? In fact this is what the defendant alleges:

> A judge ordered Rawls to decrypt the hard drives. In its recent ruling, the 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals described what happened next. Rawls "stated that he could not remember the passwords necessary to decrypt the hard drives and entered several incorrect passwords during the forensic examination."

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/02/man-who-refused-...

[sjy]

> And how can the police prove you wrong if you say you forgot where you placed it?

By producing other evidence that suggests that you’re lying (eg. metadata or witnesses suggesting that you recently entered the correct password). In this case the judge had to reject Rawls’ claim of lost memory in order to find him in contempt. Maybe the judge’s finding of fact was wrong, but that’s not what the case is about now.

[manfredo]

> By producing other evidence that suggests that you’re lying (eg. metadata or witnesses suggesting that you recently entered the correct password).

People have forgotten passwords in a matter of minutes in some cases. Not to mention, this guy has been held in prison for 4 years. Plenty of time to forget a password. Forget the password to an encrypted drive is a life sentence?

[xeromal]

What if you don't give up your books that you're legally required to keep? What happens? How did they get them?

[manfredo]

My point is a company handing over books is not the same situation as the police commanding you to tell them where you put a journal. A company's financial records are something they are specifically required to keep and provide by law. If they don't have their books in their possession then they're in violation of the law. The government doesn't even need any suspicion, any company can be audited.