[jorblumesea]

Most Americans only experience small parts justice systems eg: traffic tickets, civil courts, the usual things in our daily life. But the US justice system is huge and has really varied uses and applications.

To extrapolate all the abuses of the wider justice system to a highly specialized court whose only purpose is national security would be a mistake, in my opinion. It's such a specific purpose and such a specialized role, it's hard to say for certain.

The only thing we have to go off is the testimony and opinions of those who have experienced it. We have no other barometer or metric, everything else is hearsay.

You're not wrong, it's just not a strong argument.

[Consultant32452]

The state regularly tortures, murders, starts civil wars, provides weapons to genocidal allies, etc. I have literally the entire history of the world on my side. You have, as you admitted, hearsay. The sane position is that they will be at least as bad in private as they are in public.

[azinman2]

Who are “they?”

The state is not a monolith. It’s barely top-down. It’s a collection of people in many different departments with their own ideals and relations. The people who decide what dictators to arms are NOT judges, nor come from the domestic judicial branch.

[Consultant32452]

"They" are the people requesting those FISA warrants. "They" are the people who put you in prison forever without a trial. "They" are the people Snowden revealed to be flaunting the law with illegal domestic surveillance programs.

[azinman2]

People requesting FISA warrants are in agencies like the NSA. They’re not in the White House determining international policy. Hell, with this president, most of what they say is ignored!

What prison forever without a trial? Are you talking about the few captured during war in Guantanamo? Again, this is not the judges running secret courts that ok FISA requests.

If you’ve ever worked in a large company, you’ll see the diversity of opinions, dominions, political battles, and generally chaos. And yet the public sees the output as unified, when the input was anything but. Now just imagine the government, far bigger in size, full of people that came from all kinds of backgrounds and ways — thru elections, normal job applications, the military, etc... from a variety of political backgrounds and moral standards.

I encourage you not to paint with such broad brushstrokes.

[jorblumesea]

If the state is as unethical and as shady as claimed, why bother with FISA and warrants? Why not just do whatever you feel like, because as you say, anything goes?

[mirimir]

It's pretty clear that they do. Read about SOD, for example.

Or official policy on StingRays and stuff. Basically, telling investigators to lie to prosecutors and judges.