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by NeedMoreTea 2333 days ago
> blame the western world or "corporations" - no, it is your (our) fault as individuals.

Hmm, here I diverge. I can demand a long lasting, repairable, sustainable appliance (and most products) until I am blue in the face, no corporation is willing to make and sell me one. In fact they're going the opposite way and products are less sustainable, shorter lasting, and subject to far more "fashion" replacement than ever. As companies have become global, and got ever larger the sole focus on profit, particularly that going to the execs has pushed out everything else -- fair pay and working conditions, pensions, long term jobs, environment, local community, etc.

We can all do our bit, and should, as far as we're able, but it requires government to regulate to get corporations to all do their bit. Without strong regulation and suitably targeted taxation you get a select few, and an awful lot of greenwashing.

Lets also not forget that the vast majority of the current consumer boom and demand for far too much stuff is pushed, via advertising, not pulled, from need. To get you unhappy with your looks, weight, fitness, kitchen, lifestyle, status, status compared to your neighbour, all in the name of selling you an expensive solution, that rarely improves anything, and frequently makes you feel worse.

1 comments

> I can demand a long lasting, repairable, sustainable appliance (and most products) until I am blue in the face, no corporation is willing to make and sell me one.

I can't tell if this is ideology or a mistake, but this is not true. Firstly, if you demand something that can be reasonably built, somebody will sell it to you for the right price. Remember: corporations are just regular folk trying to make money, like everyone else in modern society.

Second, if your argument is "Well, it would be so much more expensive" then this is kind of your own problem, not theirs. Corporations have achieved incredibly affordable production through economies of scale in massive markets. They cater to the demands of large groups of consumers who are willing to pay what it takes for their needs and luxuries. If nobody else wants what you want, nobody will build it for you except you.

Claiming that corporations won't make you a 'long lasting, repairable, sustainable appliance' means (a) you haven't asked or looked, or (b) you aren't willing to pay for the qualities you demand.

> it requires government to regulate to get corporations to all do their bit.

I agree with you here.

> Lets also not forget ... makes you feel worse.

I agree here too - you're right. Advertising is awful, and I don't know what we should do about it, I haven't put enough thought into that issue.

> I can't tell if this is ideology or a mistake, but this is not true.

Neither I hope, just hard won experience of 40 years of buying stuff, getting things repaired (or not) and talking to the repair people, trying to buy sustainable products, trying to prefer locally made where possible, comparing the product or appliance I bought 35 years ago with its modern equivalent etc. Thankfully for much of that time I've not needed to care too much about price in what I choose, so I tend to prefer the best end of the market -- in search of better quality, which is an increasingly futile expectation as even most premium brands now cut costs to barely better than mid-market.

> Corporations have achieved incredibly affordable production ... Claiming that corporations won't make you ...

Wrong on both a) and b) as it goes. Some searches have been particularly extensive.. :)

This rather comes across as ideology actually, or you're over playing the counterpoint just a little :) There's some very significant downsides to globalisation and the resulting changes in companies. Especially of the huge globalised corporations today who hold portfolios of well known brands, that have no connection at all to their original founders, unique selling points, quality or aspiration. Very different to when those 20 brands were 15 or 20 companies, all competing, most retaining a sense of place, and customer needs were far higher up the priority lists.

I can think of lots of examples, but I'll offer just two that I hope give a representative idea. Obviously there's some generalising here. First something really simple: A kettle.

In 1980 there wasn't as much choice "only" 10 or 20 to choose from in most shops -- no LEDs or internet connections and other pointless gimmicks. Yet at the same time that was a benefit. A company would change the kettle when they had something new -- a better filter, a longer lasting element, etc and only rarely updating for style with new colour or shape options. The shop you bought it from would have the exact same models potentially for years, so they were happy to always carry spare filters, elements (these were usually changeable, even most of the flat base ones -- though that type was still uncommon), and seals at tiny prices. Very good chance most would be made in your home country and only one or two super-cheap imports.

In 2020 there's loads of choice -- every single one of them a short life model, probably changed every year for no reason other than making it look a bit different, and changing the shape of all parts. No shop will carry spares, none still give the option of replacing element, a replacement filter will be offered online or direct from manufacturer for 1/3 to 1/2 the price of the new kettle. The water boils no faster, it pours no better, but it has no chance of lasting a decade or two. When the element goes, throw it away, it's your only option.

Something complex: A fridge and ignoring the switch from CFCs, which was regulated.

The 1970 or 1980 fridge-freezer probably made more noise when running, was unlikely to be frost free. If it was a decent one almost certainly had more insulation than now, so it would warm up far slower, and need to run the less efficient cooler much less often. Overall using the same, or less electric than today, it would no doubt get a terrible rating on the modern efficiency sticker though! Components were discrete so could be replaced individually, and usually quite general to apply to multiple models. Few repairs would need a re-gas, which generally wasn't ever worth it. On the few frost free models, the heater and fan were discrete, and replacing a defrost element was a simple 30 minute repair job and a £5 part. They were apparently built to last forever, including interior drawers and storage, gaining only a mid-life rattle or three.

The 2020 fridge has less insulation, warms faster in the event of fault or power cut, has lots of electronics, but usually with more precise temperature controls. The interiors are better laid out, with a better selection of drawers and storage reflecting our changed habits, but mostly using much more fragile plastics. The compressor will be quieter. BUT... Led particularly by Samsung (who the repair fellow seemed to think the absolute worst for this) are aiming to be entirely un-repairable. As the most extreme example of this, Samsung and others have combined the defrost element (a consumable) into a non-separable unit with the cooling coils. To replace the defrost element, once £5 and 30 min or an hour labour and dead easy to do yourself, is now a £400+ part, several hours of labour, and a re-gas. On a £1,500 fridge-freezer.

Even the once better thought of AEG, Liebherr, Miele, Neff, Stoves etc have cut their products from premium and well made, to mid market or even low end quality -- they just have more features for the premium prices. Maybe, if you're really lucky, they'll last a little longer. They'll not be any more repairable. They'll undoubtedly be playing the same "let's make it a single unit and unrepairable" game. Fair chance they'll also be in a portfolio of dozen brands unconnected with the original factories and retained knowledge. Several decades of reliable use with slim chance of a simple repair visit or two? Pretty much forget it.

Similar applies to just about every category of stuff. Some are worse than others, but the direction is clear, and near universal. The exceptions are becoming very rare, but seem to be those who didn't get the memo to consolidate, globalise, offshore and hold a portfolio of dozens of brands, but just stick to making their core products well. Just as they always did. Maybe adding a few offshored relative cheapies to fill in the gap below their usual high end.