[JDiculous]

> This is categorically false. Face-to-face time...

Just because talking to an expert is valuable doesn't mean you can't learn it for free on the internet. Also most undergrad curriculums are teaching old stuff - not exactly cutting edge knowledge requiring face-to-face one-on-one time with an expert in your field.

It's not as if the alternative to 4 years of undergrad and $100-250k in tuition + living costs is just teaching yourself the same arbitrary curriculum alone in your room for 4 years getting a degree in some random field learning things you never actually use in the real world. One could instead intern or work, and not only potentially learn significantly more relevant and lucrative real-world skills for free, but actually get paid to do it. A business student could instead work directly for entrepreneurs and use that tuition money to start their own ventures.

Most people use very little of anything they learn in school after they graduate. For example I majored in math, and now as a software engineer I don't use any of that. I know some math majors will try to rationalize it by saying they learned "problem solving" skills or whatever but there are a million other more useful things I could've done instead of what I did in school. Everything I learn now as a software engineer I either teach myself or learn on the job. There is no curriculum that could prepare me for what I do now because by the time the curriculum is written, it would be outdated (well perhaps such a curriculum of "fundamentals" could be constructed, but the CS curriculum is not it).

The system is outdated, inefficient, and a downright pyramid scheme scamming the youth into indentured servitude in the U.S. If tuition was reasonable and having a college degree wasn't required for most jobs then I wouldn't be as critical of college.

[jshowa3]

I don't know what university you went to, but there are such things as bad universities. Just like there's such things as bad Internet courses.

However, the university I went to, could be classified as "No-Name" and I use what I learned in school almost everyday. In fact, I used K-maps to help a senior engineer struggling with a complex logic problem by simplifying it. The CS fundamentals I learn prevent me from writing ugly code and at least give me a sense for what's slow.

I also went to a university with a built in co-op education program where you got credit and paid for being an intern. And let me tell you, most companies treat interns like shit. They sometimes don't even bother having them do anything besides mediocre grunt work. My intern experience was not the greatest and arguably worse than my college experience. Most the time I was left on my own having no idea what to do and spent most of it reading programming books. Whatever "real-world" skills I picked up, like doing actual projects, was moot.

But again, it's mostly relative. So making categorical statements like "universities are useless" and "credentials are for cheaters" doesn't really help and certainly doesn't speak the truth.

[JDiculous]

CS fundamentals are great, thankfully you don't need to physically go to any university and pay hundreds of thousands of dollars in tuition to learn them.

The alternative isn't just being an intern taking on grunt work, there are many who forego college to work full-time jobs in industry.

[solveit]

I maintain that there still exist things that you can only learn via osmosis. Sometimes, books and MOOCs just will not do.

Also,

> It's not as if the alternative to 4 years of undergrad and $100-250k in tuition + living costs is just teaching yourself the same arbitrary curriculum alone in your room for 4 years getting a degree in some random field learning things you never actually use in the real world. One could instead intern or work, and not only potentially learn significantly more relevant and lucrative real-world skills for free, but actually get paid to do it.

I mean, sure you can not go to school and do different things, and it might even be a good idea, but that's a far cry from the original claim, which was

> Absolutely nothing you learn in a college education you can't learn yourself for free on the internet.

[JDiculous]

Please name me one piece of any STEM undergraduate curriculum that I can't learn for free on the internet, and then I'll take back my statement.

[jshowa3]

Not everyone is a genius like you. And if you want to sit in your room and do tutorials and MOOC courses all day without speaking to a single soul, and you can figure everything out on your own without guidance, be my guest. I applaud you, because that's something I struggle with and maybe that says more about me than you.

Not only that, please tell me how many people can afford things like a mass spectrometer, fume hood, VNA, and other pieces of equipment that cost upward of 6,000+ dollars when they're in high school. If you want a real STEM education, you need to learn how to use test equipment unless you stick with CS or math, there isn't a lot of options to learn for "free". Even online courses cost money.

Sure there may be many people that get lucky and get into actual positions, but they're few and far between and are a direct result of success bias. The media shows you the thousands or so odd people that make it under extreme circumstances and never once mentions the people who never make it because that isn't "cool".

[JDiculous]

Ok yes my statement applies more to fields like CS and math and not to fields that require a lot of physical equipment (eg. chemistry).

I'm not claiming that the best way to learn is alone in your room, I don't even believe that to be the case. The best way to learn is by working with people who know more than you. That is generally what happens when you work a full-time job. Sure in school you can learn from professors, but (1) what you learn is often divorced from the reality of professional work (2) the format of listening to lectures, completing busywork, and taking multiple-choice exams on random information could be Googled isn't the most efficient way to learn.

Yes I know it's difficult to find work without a degree because companies unfortunately discriminate against applicants without degrees. I wouldn't be opposed to a law that banned employers from discriminating against non-degree holders unless the job clearly requires someone with the expertise gained from the degree (eg. medicine, not law or marketing).