[swyx]

i am wishing i could go back 15 years and do this now. i was dumb enough to go to an ivy league for an unrelated degree, then change careers and go thru a bootcamp, and i'm now still 100's of thousands in debt. if i was growing up today i would absolutely drop everything to do this. kudos to shopify but it really feels a little bittersweet.

[sumo89]

I don't have the amount of debt that you do but I also did a career change after some years of doing dead end jobs. I have the same feeling that I wish this was an option for me when I was looking to start university but I'm also aware I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life when I was 18. Chances are I would do these 4 years then decide I want to be a sky diving instructor or something instead.

[beering]

Curious and want to ask: if this were available 15 years ago, would you have done it? It seems like you'd need to 1) have CS as your goal, 2) know about Shopify and their program, and 3) get in.

I know a lot of people don't even have CS on their radar when they enter college.

[swyx]

yeah of course, 15 year hindsight is 20/20 :)

[Aperocky]

Graduated from an unrelated degree more recently, but had the opportunity to write a whole lot of code while there. Got my first dev job right out of school.

There are much more opportunities nowaday to use coding in almost every major, sadly, the schools haven't changed, ending up imo ruining a lot of career.

[gigatexal]

While my debt load is not nearly as much I did the same thing. I studied economics even though when I got home from class I would spend hours and hours tinkering with hardware, Linux, and programming. Everyone I talked to thought I was silly for not sticking with my CS major and doing Economics. They were right. I am learning on the job and it’s been kicking my butt but I am learning and it’s been good though I would go back and tell my old self to stick with CS.

[rchaud]

Don't put yourself down too much about past decisions. I also went to school for Econ, and did IT support and web design jobs on campus. But I wanted to set my career up for finance and did summer analyst internships. Then, 2008 happened and all the finance jobs dried up with some companies skipping campus recruitment entirely.

A decade later and I'm working in UX research and digital strategy and the finance stuff feels like a lifetime ago. Everyone's journey is going to be different.

[pjc50]

Economics could have been a gateway to a high-earning career, but you'd have had to work in finance.

[gigatexal]

That was the plan. But I went to a no-name school in the eyes of the finance world but also my heart wasn’t into it so my performance wasn’t great. And it occurred to me almost by the end of my studies that I didn’t want to work in finance. Economics is really interesting though.

[swyx]

i went to wharton and it didnt work out. finance is really brutal man.

[gigatexal]

I'm sorry. What do you do now? Since you read HN I am assuming you're in tech

[faceyspacey]

Just never pay the debts bro. Forget that shit and let it all go, and start stacking to live a debt free stress free life.

[cmwelsh]

I know you’re downvoted for saying something that’s basically unethical, but I’m interested: how do you propose to buy a home using this strategy? All cash? In my area, I’d need around $200,000 cash. I know there’s trailer parks and etc. but they may not work for everyone.

[zdragnar]

Loans originating in the US for education are generally not discharged in bankruptcy. Not paying them is a good way to get your wages garnished or worse. I have no idea what recourse there might be from a loan through Singapore.

That being said, discharging debt in bankruptcy will haunt your credit for 7 years, or so I've heard. Being forced to not finance anything for 7 years is a decent way to save money if you've got a good paying job, I suppose, as you don't fall into the trap of only looking at the monthly payment without thinking of the total cost.

[imtringued]

I don't think it is unethical. If people get overwhelmed by student debt because their degree doesn't actually result in job opportunities that allow them to pay that debt back then they have no obligation to pay the debt back. It was the lender's decision to invest their money into such an obviously money losing strategy and yet they did so despite the high risk. The word "undischargeable" made the lender blind but the reality is that the lender was just plain irresponsible with his money and no government guarantee can change that.

[golergka]

> If people get overwhelmed by student debt because their degree doesn't actually result in job opportunities that allow them to pay that debt back then they have no obligation to pay the debt back.

The debt is the obligation to pay back. As far as I know, education loans don't include the clauses you mentioned.

> It was the lender's decision to invest their money into such an obviously money losing strategy and yet they did so despite the high risk.

That's true, but that doesn't absolve the person who took the loan from the responsibility to pay it, and doesn't make not paying it any less unethical.

Ethics and causality are not the same. If you don't lock the door of your apartment, that can dramatically increase the probability of being robbed, and your actions would be the cause of this robbery. But it wouldn't by any yota affect the ethical side of it. (I'm not saying that not paying back the loans is the same as robbery, I'm just explaining the logic using a more obvious example).

[matwood]

> It was the lender's decision to invest their money into such an obviously money losing strategy and yet they did so despite the high risk.

I have 100k+ of unsecured credit available to me at any given time. If I go and spend that on hookers and blow is that the lenders fault or mine?

I believe the lack of personal responsibility is problem that will not be fixed by absolving even more responsibility.

[blackearl]

It's a bit of both isn't it? They gave you so much credit because they assessed you as the type of person who wouldn't do that. If they were 100% sure that you would be spending recklessly, you'd probably have a limit of a few hundred at most. Part of their job is making that assessment correctly.

[rchaud]

You're conflating "fault" with "responsibility". The second you signed up for the line of credit, the manager who evaluated your application became responsible for what happens afterwards. If you squandered it, it might be your fault, but the manager is the one who'll be getting grief for giving it to you in the first place.

[tonyedgecombe]

I know you’re downvoted for saying something that’s basically unethical

It was unethical for the system to push an 18 year old down the route of taking on huge loans. I'm not sure that finding a way out of that is.

[matwood]

> the system

So we are going to absolve all 18 year olds of decision making because of 'the system'?

As an 18 year old I was keenly aware of debt. My college experience was going to a local school while working 20-30 hours/week and living at home. All because we didn't have much money, and I wanted to take as few loans as possible.

So maybe this persons parents and primary school failed them, but I don't buy it was the system.

[rhoyerboat]

In the US we ban marketing tobacco and alcohol to minors, if that is largely okay with everyone, we should consider extending it to ban marketing -anything- to minors.

When I hear someone say 'the system,' I wish they would be more specific.

I think a small group of corporations being in direct control of the mass dissemination of corporation serving behavioral role models and information is a problem that needs to be addressed in order ensure the quality of freedom in the marketplace.

Taking the oceanic volumes of weapons grade, artificial psychological pressure off the kids seems like a great place to start.

[tonyedgecombe]

When listings for unskilled or low skilled jobs state things like "must have a degree and be able to life 50 lbs" then I think you can conclude there is a problem with the system.

Blaming the parents or primary school is useless because this person had no control over who their parents were or what school they went to.

I'm glad you had some self awareness at 18 but that isn't the norm as we can see from the rising student debt.

[astura]

I just can't get behind the idea that 18 year olds are nothing but drooling idiots who can't understand anything they are doing and student loans are something that "just happens" to people.

I knew full well what I was doing when I took out my student loans. I knew how much I was borrowing. I knew it would have to be paid back. I knew loans would have to cover both tuition and living expenses because I had no savings and I knew my parents weren't going to help very much. I also knew I could reduce my loan burden by starting at community college and/or going to state school. I still went to private school for my entire degree.

While it was scary to jump into my adult life with debt, and it was a bit of a leap of faith, the risk was obviously worth it, both at the time and definitely in hindsight. Once I graduated I put my head down and aggressively paid off my student loans, kept living like a college kid until they were paid off.

[abdulmuhaimin]

Its not like you have gun pointing to your head when making the decision to take the loan.

Be responsible. At 18 you're not a kid anymore

[LoSboccacc]

don't the majority of 18yo guys have parents or adults around they can refer to in helping their decision?

[swyx]

oh hey i recognize your user name :)

[IggleSniggle]

Took me getting a doctorate in an unrelated field before I realized I was in the wrong place and changed careers.

I don't have the debt (just the opportunity cost of wasting a decade doing something I didn't really want to do), and this program wouldn't have saved me, but I understand your regret.

[zerr]

If we ignore pedigree and networking, how good (high quality material/curriculum, good lecturers) do public/affordable/free universities and colleges provide (in US)?

[gazelle21]

It's pretty hit or miss. I went to community college, and some classes were amazing others were a complete joke.

[chrisseaton]

> now still 100's of thousands in debt

Is that hyperbole, or literally your debt is that much?

[xenihn]

My brother's ivy league tuition was subsidized based on income, and my dad still paid over $300k over four years. Though that did include housing as well.

[dwohnitmok]

That seems really high. The entirely unsubsidized tuition rate for Ivies is between 45-50k per year. With room and board and all other school related fees that usually rises to 65-70k per year.

That is entirely without subsidy. It leaves out other living expenses that can come with various club activities and other activities of that nature. But 300k would leave about 5k per year for other incidentals. Again this is entirely unsubsidized.

The only other factor here is summer breaks, but those are usually filled in by paid internships/research positions at Ivy schools.

[swyx]

not hyperbole. there were some compounding factors i didnt mention, but the bulk is quite literally college tuition. i dont need to put my screwed up financial life on display but it's the single worst decision of my life, all for imagined prestige. i'm lucky enough that i will earn my way out of it, but it is quite literally preventing me from starting any businesses right now, which is what i actually want to do.

this Shopify program would have been a lifesaver. we need way more Shopifys in the world.

[JDiculous]

I made the mistake too, going $128k in debt to pursue a unrelated master's degree at an Ivy only to end up pursuing software engineering.

Are your loans from the government? If so, you can likely qualify for the Pay-as-you-earn program where your payments are capped at 10% of your disposable income, and debts are forgiven after 20 years (though you have to pay taxes on the amount forgiven I believe). Of course it still stings to see $1.3k/month get sucked out of your bank account to pay the interest on this student debt scam, just know that the pain is mostly psychological. I just choose not to think about it, because it's too depressing otherwise.

I honestly believe that student debt will be forgiven within 10-20 years. Candidates like Elizabeth Warren are already pledging to eliminate student loan debt. Once the younger generation is in power, they will likely kill this giant pyramid scheme and forgive all student loans. And no matter what happens in Congress, if all of us collectively strike on our student loan debt, then the government will have no choice but to fix this problem they created.

[rchaud]

$128k for a master's degree? Surely it had to be an MBA or a business school degree (MFin etc) of some sort? Most other Master's programs are research-oriented and paid for with grants, stipends and TA work.

[JDiculous]

It was expensive because it was at an Ivy League school. Most masters students at Ivy League schools do not receive any form of financial aid. It's basically a money printing machine for the university, and I fell for it.

I could've gotten a M.S. for free at my state university, but I wanted the prestige. Dumbest decision ever.

[throwawayhhakdl]

While it would be nice to enjoy that benefit, I feel like that mindset is similar to that which has more or less locked cheap healthcare behind employer plans.

[codegeek]

GP went to an Ivy league. Totally possible

[dwohnitmok]

Given the amount, that's actually fairly unlikely to be from the Ivy League education. Generally Ivy League schools cost less (sometimes way less) than public schools unless your family makes more than ~130-150k combined and/or has fairly substantial assets.

One possible way for it to happen is if a student's parents have a high income, are unwilling to pay for the student's education and force the student to shoulder the financial burden, and the student does not argue his/her case to the financial aid office. Another possible way is if the family has a relatively high pre-existing net worth, but low income, and is unwilling to spend the income, and again the student shoulders the debt.

[icelancer]

I was accepted to MIT and could not realistically afford it despite my parents having a low-medium household income. I chose a lesser private school that offered me a full scholarship instead.

I'm in my 30s-40s - was entering college before need-blind was a thing. It absolutely happens.

[dwohnitmok]

Oh I don't doubt that top-tier universities can still be a tough call when the alternative is a free ride, especially from 20+ years ago. In retrospect my comment left out the fact that a substantial portion of students admitted to Ivy league schools (or MIT, all part of the Overlap Group that got prosecuted by the Justice Department back in the early 90s for student aid price-fixing) do in fact get full scholarships for other schools, which can make the calculus for these schools less rosy (e.g. 8k per year, while cheaper than a 20k state school, still is a lot more than 0).

It's just usually not the case that you'll graduate with hundreds of thousands of dollars of debt, at least these days. It's quite rare IIRC among students receiving financial aid to graduate with more than several thousand dollars of debt from an Ivy over four years, and if you go back several decades I'm fairly certain those numbers go up, but I'd be rather shocked if they went up by more than an order of magnitude.

The OP got really screwed by the Singaporean situation, where if you don't fulfill the post-graduation government work posting obligations, the Singaporean government will claw back all the money it gave you for college plus interest.

[JDiculous]

I'd be that most Ivy League students have parents making more than $130-150k combined, probably substantially more. That's only a middle class income, and at least anecdotally most Ivy League students I know tend to come from upper class families.

Tuition alone is $50k/yr, which would equate to $250k for a 4-year degree not accounting for living costs. Even at 50% off the sticker price, you're looking at over $125k in debt upon graduation.

[jaxn]

That is twice the average household income in the US. Less than 20% of all households have combined earnings over 130k.

You may want to reassess your understanding of middle class.

[JDiculous]

> Pew Research Center defines middle-class or middle-income households as those with incomes that are two-thirds to double the 2016 U.S. median household income of $57,617. According to this formula, Pew determined that middle-class Americans have incomes ranging from approximately $45,200 to $135,600.

Call it whatever you want, but there's a huge difference between $135k/yr household income split among 3 kids in an expensive metro area where a house in the suburbs costs $600k+, and $300k/yr with 1 kid in a low cost of living area.

[swyx]

in my case this is pretty much what happened, except with the singapore government loaning money at 10% compound interest via a scholarship, which i had to break due to being assigned to a terrible job post graduation.

i may be book smart but ive made some colossal screwups in my life.

[dwohnitmok]

Oof. Yeah that'll get you. I've heard quite a few horror stories about the post-graduation work obligations that get attached to Singaporean government scholarships and that'll probably get you hit with a double-whammy since the school may discount part or all of your financial aid based on the government scholarship.

[susijdjdjxa]

The Ivy no-loan policies are a relatively recent development.

[dwohnitmok]

My impression is that at least for the last two decades, loans have made up a significant minority of Ivy league financial aid and most of it has come in the form of grant money. I think loans started getting phased out right around 15 years ago.

[dstroot]

More than possible. Highly likely.