[dmalvarado]

Main problem with this advice is, I can either assert my rights on principle, be detained, possibly held in lockup, deal with the lawyers and courts...

Or I can just let them look in my empty trunk.

I say this with full awareness of how fucked up it is, but your bet is to be white and polite.

[tim58]

> Or I can just let them look in my empty trunk.

There is a significant chance that if you assert your rights you will shortly be let go and if you let them search it will be a lengthy process. There is a non-zero chance that evidence is planted during a search. If you or any of your passengers (present or past) are drug users there is a non-zero chance that legitimate drug residue is in your vehicle. If you purchased your vehicle used there is a non-zero chance the previous owner left drug residue in it.

In my opinion having a police officer search a vehicle is more risky than asserting your rights.

[CodeAndCuffs]

Former cop here: You're right on the first part.

Until you realize your friend left his gym bag with weed in it in your trunk. That looks bad man, and comes back on you. My best seizures came from consent searches. I've also had cars that I've stopped where I was darn sure they were moving something in it, but I didnt have PC, and I didn't have a dog nearby that I could get in reasonable time. I asked for consent, and got told "No" in no uncertain terms. They left on their merry way, and I still wonder sometimes if a compartment full of stolen guns was in that dang car.

Sometimes we have a reason to be suspicious, sometimes were just guessing. Just to account for confirmation bias, I'd ask for consent to search completely randomly. Sometimes I got it, spent 10 seconds searching, and was done. Sometimes I didn't and said have a nice day. Sometimes I got the consent and a stolen gun and some hard narcotics

There have been a few cases where we had enough PC to search a residence, and asked for consent. Each time it was an unusual circumstance (e.g. the roomate was selling drugs or wanted or something). Each time we were in and out in 10 minutes. If we had been told to get a warrant, we would've had to detain the home owner (which in this case means hang out with him in our car or in his yard, casually talking and killing time) while we go to get a warrant.

This means driving to the magistrates office 45 minutes away, writing the affidavit, waiting in line, doing the hearing, then driving back, maybe 2-3 hours total. If during that time the homeowner goes "Hey, screw this, just search it", we won't, as we don't want it to seem like coercion. Once consent is denied, we aren't going forward without a warrant.

So again, general rule, "Dont talk to the police, assert your rights". Except when maybe you should. If you come home and your spouse is missing and blood is everywhere, you are a suspect. Heck, at the beginning, you are probably THE suspect, but you may want to talk to the cops to help them figure out where your wife went. If the cops want to look in your house for a stolen gun that your shady roommate allegedly stole, it may be BS to just search your house, or they may just want to check that 1 room, get that stolen gun, and go.

[jdkee]

“ If you come home and your spouse is missing and blood is everywhere, you are a suspect.”

Exactly. And this is why you should retain an attorney and let the attorney communicate with the police. Suspicion usually (and rightly so) falls on the spouse or intimate partner due to likely culpability given the statistics. Don’t become a statistic yourself and countenance yourself into an unwarranted charge.

[astura]

The problem is if you have bird poop on the hood, donut crumbs on the floor, your passenger was recently drywalling, or you have vitamins, breath mints, or powdered milk on you then you might end up spending the night in jail. Those are all real items that really got people arrested.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/evj89n/this-dollar2-test-...

[vondur]

Ha, many years ago while I was playing in a punk band at a house party that was broken up by the police. Our equipment was in the house and we wanted to get it and leave, but the police weren’t letting anyone back in the house. So the rest of the band members volunteered me (the white guy) to ask the officer if we could get our equipment from the house. Well, apparently the officer was not in a good mood and told me to step the f back as he hit me with his baton across my chest. Of course the other band members laughed at me when I came back with his answer. Taught me a lesson.

[simple_phrases]

> Or I can just let them look in my empty trunk.

And they proceed to literally tear apart your car with a knife, or if you're really unlucky, they plant evidence there.

[RHSeeger]

Or the used car you bought 3 years ago was owned by someone who's son stashed a little bit of weed in the spare tire compartment. There's just so many things that can go wrong.

[laurieg]

Unfortunately, where I live (Japan), asserting your rights and refusing a search is seen as probable cause. "If you were innocent you would just consent to the search" is how the thinking goes.

[AlexCoventry]

How does that attitude interact with article 35 of the Japanese constitution, which prohibits search and seizure without a warrant with adequate cause?

[laurieg]

I am not a lawyer so I can't really give much of an opinion on this aspect. My layman's reading of that party of the constitution seems to suggest that searching people like this would be unlawful, but perhaps it had been judged in the past that not consenting to a search is sufficiently suspicious.

The other common tactic I have seen is when the police want someone but cannot search or arrest then straightaway they physically surround them. 4+ police officers will stand around the person in such a way as to stop them from leaving without touching an officer. If the person pushes past the police they get arrested for assault. These stand offs can last for literally hours, in which case the police will rotate it in shifts.

I don't work in a legal profession , I just happen to live on a street with lots of bars, nightclubs and a particularly active police station.

[lovemenot]

What you say may well happen like this occasionally, but I would question the police's imputed motive. At least in general.

My wife works in mental health in Japan. Nurses use this exact technique to contain potentially violent situations. Not for legal purposes, but for the safety of themselves, the patient who is surrounded and of others too.

It's pretty effective in de-escalating and does not induce force from either party.

Again, not saying this system is never abused, but in general it's safer for all parties not to up the ante in using force for the purpose of getting a faster resolution.

[AstralStorm]

This is unconstitutional way of limiting movement, even by Japanese Constitution which is lax, and not allowed by statute for police operations.

Restraining movement does not require enclosure or other technical means, yet is still illegal. Police can literally stop you for a few reasons and no more.

If you literally tell the police to move away because they're illegally preventing you from moving in clear terms, if they hit you while you push through they're committing assault. Treat it like any other police brutality in court.

The first thing you have to do in this abuse of power situation is to get evidence, and by stupid Japanese law you're not allowed to take photographs of policemen I think, so get something else, like sound recording.

Suing them would be a fun pastime for someone rich, and a way to get the prosecutor to throw the case.

Of course of they really want you for something illegal, they will get you in some other way.

[wyclif]

A very Asian mentality, this (I'm living in SE Asia). Conformity and obedience are strongly-held cultural values.

[wtmt]

Although some people's imagination of Asia is different from geographic reality, I'll make it comprehensive by admitting that it's the same in India too. I'm sure it's the same in neighboring countries in the rest of Asia. Conformity and submission to authorities, with emphasis on (respecting) hierarchy is ingrained in people. Of course, the governments and authorities always like submissive people, and paint anyone with other views as a national threat (the latter is a global thing).

[AstralStorm]

Indonesia and Thailand are slightly different though.

It matches for India, China, Japan and both Koreas.

[dredmorbius]

Your trunk may well not be as empty as you think it is.

The ability for police to detain you on no evidence is slight. And your opportunities for damages increase rapidly.

[throwaway17_17]

I can say with absolute confidence that the ability for law enforcement to DETAIN you on less than no evidence is vastly more than slight, it’s enormous. Further, law enforcement’s ability to arrest you on ZERO evidence is extensive and it take time, money, and effort to get free and clear of the unsubstantiated charges.

[dredmorbius]

Does standing up for your rights help or hurt?

That's the salient question.

I don't doubt your confidence, and, likely, experience. Only the specific strategy as outlined in this thread and article.

[throwaway17_17]

I would always encourage the exercise of rights, particularly against searches (as the parent mentioned). However, the refusal to search often, I hesitate to say always, but I can’t think any outstanding examples in my experience where a refusal to search did not automatically result in the search happening. And the results of that search in many cases will turn up enough ‘suspicion’ for the officer to arrest for some charge, even where actual evidence is clearly not enough.

I will certainly say that this is not universal, but refusals to search are often cited as suspicious behaviors, which then turns into more suspicious behaviors giving more reasons to continue the detention. Also, the purported difference between detention and arrest is nearly useless in practice, who feels like they are free to just get in their car and drive off.

So, the TL;DR is yes stand up for yourself and exercise your rights, but understand that in most cases in the US, if law enforcement wants to arrest you, they are going to find a reason to do so. Be smart, be safe.

[dredmorbius]

Thanks.

I've had ... different ... experiences, though could well see others not.

[P_I_Staker]

Yup, these recommendations have practical issues that are rarely seriously discussed. If you assert your rights, the cops will also be the biggest jerks possible.