[klagermkii]

> In fact I suspect that a sense of frustrated talent is what drives some people to become haters. They're not just saying "It's unfair that so-and-so is famous," but "It's unfair that so-and-so is famous, and not me."

> Could a hater be cured if they achieved something impressive? My guess is that it's a moot point, because they never will. I've been able to observe for long enough that I'm fairly confident the pattern works both ways: not only do people who do great work never become haters, haters never do great work.

Listening to that old Steve Jobs interview where he talks about Microsoft (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJWWtV1w5fw) I think there elements there of what Paul would be calling a "hater". A view that there's something a bit wrong with the world when particular non-ideal characteristics are rewarded.

It sounds as if Paul has enough of his own personal issues with haters that he wants to put them all into an irredeemable bucket.

[combatentropy]

> Listening to that old Steve Jobs interview where he talks about Microsoft

It's appropriate for Steve Jobs to talk about Microsoft, because they were competitors, out in the arena. Steve Jobs himself is famous. So this a different situation than the classic hater scenario, where a person of no fame attacks a person of some fame. Still, maybe Steve sounds like a sore loser, which is basically what Paul Graham said that haters are.

But I watched and listened to Steve Jobs a lot, and I read his biography. And he reminds me of myself, although outwardly I am polite and back down in debates. Basically Steve Jobs says what I think. I like minimalism and simplicity and perfection and beauty. Steve Jobs was rich, but you have to admit he was different than your average mediocre rich executive. I think he was motivated by beauty more than wealth, as am I.

Furthermore, Microsoft is the antithesis of all my values. Whereas I would spend too much time and money to make things perfect, they would cut corners to make more money. I hoped for my product to gain fame by merit, Microsoft relied on advertising and business tactics to run everyone else out of town.

And so my takeaway of Steve Jobs is just what you would think: Thank you for saying what I was feeling! I think he hated Microsoft, but not because he cared about money or fame but because it frustrated his attempts to spread beauty and perfection everywhere. (Lest that sounds way too nice, I would qualify it by saying that someone can pursue beauty selfishly, at the expense of the people around you.)

DISCLAIMER: I'm a fanboy of Steve Jobs.

[ajross]

Regarding the link, you can kind of get around that semantically: I'd view Jobs' attention as a "grudge". He's not bashing microsoft out of a generic sense that "microsoft is bad", he's mad at Gates for what he views as specific bad actions taken against him specifically. So he wants to hurt him back.

It seems reasonable to me that that's a different kind of psychology than the fundamentally impersonal "fanboy/hater" ideas in the essay.

[JumpCrisscross]

> He's not bashing microsoft out of a generic sense that "microsoft is bad"

Jobs did a lot of that in his “we are pirates” phase. Us-v-them is a legitimate leadership tactic, and requires somewhat demonising the them.

I like the idea of a fanboy being a sign-flipped hater. But these are spherical cows. I’m not sure we can draw real-life lessons from their comparison.

(For example, fanboys can be evangelists and haters canaries in your coal mine. History is filled with delusional people doing great things.)