[deathanatos]

He might be comparing door-to-door, which is what you really should be doing if you want an apples-to-apples comparison. Just counting the scheduled time means you're ignoring delays (Caltrain suffers delays on a regular basis), wait time (Caltrain has scheduled waits of up to 40 minutes even during rush hour².), and whatever driving/walking/biking you need on the last mile either side.

E.g., catching the 7:28a gets you to SF at 8:54a¹, for a train time of 1h 26m. Wait is between 0 and 22 minutes, so let's use the average of 11m: 1h 37m. 10 minute walk/bike either side, and it's 1h 57m.

That ride costs $298.50/mo, or about $7.50 one-way.

¹if you transfer to the bullet. If you don't, add 6 minutes.

²e.g., 7:25a at Mountain View, NB. The next fastest train to SF departs at 8:05a. The 7:46a train departs sooner, but arrives 6 minutes after the 8:05a.

[perl4ever]

Also anything scheduled, you have to be there early enough to account for uncertainty, and there's no flexibility. This both consumes time and prevents you from doing things. This seems like, too obvious, and yet I think it's ignored as a major factor in why people don't take buses and trains if they can afford not to. If I'm ten minutes late leaving for work in a car, I might be ten minutes late to work. If I'm ten minutes late for the bus (which already requires me to be earlier) then I'm going to be way late for work, depending on when the next bus is.

Someone in another thread was telling me 5 miles is a long way in a city, but I used to live literally a few hundred feet from work and yet my commute was about ten minutes, either by bus or by car, compared to my current location 5 miles away that takes about the same time. There were various reasons, from the roads being perpendicular to the direction required, and living in a multistory building that required several minutes of walking to get to the parking garage or bus stop. Why didn't I walk? I did try it a few times, but it required crossing two highways where people go over 50 mph, a street in the middle where people often go 40 or over, no crosswalks whatsoever, and a line of people merging on to the highway in the morning rush who all want to run you over. So anyway, this is the best possible scenario for a bus, and it only could match a car (or walking) in time elapsed. Bus fare is cheaper than owning a car, but if you're going to have a car anyway, it's not that much cheaper than gas & wear, if at all.

I have a few times taken the bus something like 10+ miles when I didn't have my car and it takes an incredible amount of time, so if I'm not a few hundred feet from somewhere, then the bus doesn't work for me then either. As long as I own a functioning car.

[inferiorhuman]

Also anything scheduled, you have to be there early enough to account for uncertainty

You've got to do this no matter mode of transport you use.

Someone in another thread was telling me 5 miles is a long way in a city, but I used to live literally a few hundred feet from work and yet my commute was about ten minutes, either by bus or by car, compared to my current location 5 miles away that takes about the same time. There were various reasons, from the roads being perpendicular to the direction required, and living in a multistory building that required several minutes of walking to get to the parking garage or bus stop. Why didn't I walk? I did try it a few times, but it required crossing two highways where people go over 50 mph, a street in the middle where people often go 40 or over, no crosswalks whatsoever, and a line of people merging on to the highway in the morning rush who all want to run you over. So anyway, this is the best possible scenario for a bus, and it only could match a car (or walking) in time elapsed.

Well if walking is unpleasant choosing a mode of transportation that makes walking less pleasant is a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course driving is more convenient, that's what your city was optimized for... at the expense of other modes of locomotion.

Bus fare is cheaper than owning a car, but if you're going to have a car anyway, it's not that much cheaper than gas & wear, if at all.

"gas & wear" account for a portion of the TCO but ignore things like registration, insurance, and cost of purchase. Subprime car loans are a very real thing, and the average American car costs its owners over $300/mo ($381/mo is the average payment for a used car, $530/mo for a new one)[0].

Bus fare (public transit really) is far, far cheaper than that. A monthly Muni pass that allows BART usage within the city costs around $100 ($80 w/o BART access). A three-zone Caltrain pass (which would get you from Mountain View to San Francisco) runs $231 and includes VTA and SamTrans access. Still cheaper than the typical car BEFORE you start paying for gas, maintenance, repairs, registration, and insurance.

0: https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/loans/auto-loans/average-mon...

[perl4ever]

"gas & wear" account for a portion of the TCO but ignore things like registration, insurance, and cost of purchase"

Sure, but I said "if you're going to have a car anyway". And I, and I think most people who can afford it, am going to have a car even if I use mass transportation daily. If you ride the bus, you're not paying any less in registration, insurance, or car payment until you actually sell your car.

That's why it ends up being a class distinction in at least most of the places I've lived - people who consistently ride the bus are mostly people who do not have the option of owning a car for whatever reason.

I've never tried to drive in NYC, but if I lived there, and I was making the kind of money that would incentivize me to move there, then I would still keep a car for going out of the city on weekends or holidays. It's hard to find a place to park...but I lived for a while in the middle of a smaller city (about 1M population) and found a solution to parking - I lived within walking distance of work, and left my car in the free parking garage space provided by work all week. But that was a really serendipitous thing.

[inferiorhuman]

Sure, but I said "if you're going to have a car anyway". And I, and I think most people who can afford it, am going to have a car even if I use mass transportation daily. If you ride the bus, you're not paying any less in registration, insurance, or car payment until you actually sell your car.

Sure and if you're riding the bus, train, cable car, etc. instead of driving the $500/mo you're paying becomes less worthwhile.

But let's say you're driving from Mountain View to SF daily, that's about 40 miles. Let's say you consistently get 30 mpg (unlikely if there's traffic or if you're driving something large) and let's say that gas stays at $3.50/gal. That's almost $190 in fuel alone. Parking, if you want a reserved spot, is about $300/mo in San Francisco. Daily rates are closer to $400/mo (or at least that's what I've had to pay for parking along the Embarcadero). So you're looking at $500-$600 in addition to whatever it costs to own the car. That's nearly double what you'd pay for Caltrain (which is typically not a bus).

Obviously things get more expensive if you buy something more status symbol like that requires high octane fuel or gets worse mileage. Things get less expensive with an electric vehicle but parking is still extremely expensive in San Francisco.

[inferiorhuman]

He might be comparing door-to-door, which is what you really should be doing if you want an apples-to-apples comparison.

Maybe. But then it seems you're ignoring:

It's a short walk to a local Caltrain station for me and I can take it almost directly to my official desk in San Francisco

[kevingadd]

A short walk (~20 mins in my case) + accounting for having to show up early still adds time to the route, is the thing. And some people I know definitely would not be able to make that 20min walk twice a day or would have to make it slower, so it's another thing that makes public transit less accessible in this area. If I drive or take a cab I don't have to deal with that time overhead at all.

In the past I lived in Mountain View and despite being closer to SF, the nearest caltrain was more like a 30-35 minute walk for me, so I typically had to wait and catch a bus in order to get to the train station in a reasonable amount of time - creating more chances for delays.

[inferiorhuman]

A short walk (~20 mins in my case) + accounting for having to show up early still adds time to the route, is the thing.

20 minutes is hardly what I'd call a short walk (or a short distance — that would be well over a mile at the speed I typically walk).

And some people I know definitely would not be able to make that 20min walk twice a day

Yeah I've never understood this mentality. You're to ill to walk so piloting a two ton machine is safer?

so it's another thing that makes public transit less accessible in this area. If I drive or take a cab I don't have to deal with that time overhead at all.

No you just have to deal with traffic and finding parking. Last time I checked Bay Area traffic eclipsed that of LA, in large part because adding more cars is not the answer.

In the past I lived in Mountain View and despite being closer to SF, the nearest caltrain was more like a 30-35 minute walk for me, so I typically had to wait and catch a bus in order to get to the train station in a reasonable amount of time - creating more chances for delays.

So instead of improving transit the answer is to add more cars, create more pollution, more traffic, and reduce the opportunities to use other modes of transportation?

[inferiorhuman]

That ride costs $298.50/mo, or about $7.50 one-way.

$300/mo will get you a four-zone monthly pass on Caltrain. That will get you from San Jose to SF. From Mountain View the three-zone monthly pass costs $231/mo (or about $5.75 per trip).