[MuffinFlavored]

Livable to what extent? You should be able to afford food (what quality of food? do good people also believe everybody deserves to eat filet mignon/comparable on occasion?), transportation (which in some cases means car + gas + maintenance + insurance) + housing (what kind of housing? rent a room in a low cost area? have your own single family home?) + family (should you be encouraged to have 3 children aka mouths to feed if you are low income)?

I don't know if I've been brainwashed growing up by fake news but... isn't the idea "work hard for a living", not "do the minimum and be rewarded?" (aka minimum wage)

[wcarron]

> "do the minimum and be rewarded?"

In my experience, the lower you are paid, the harder you are worked. Cooks, janitors, sanitation workers, mail(wo)men and amazon delivery workers, waiters, teachers, mechanics, construction workers, etc. all work longer hours in more emotionally and/or physically taxing jobs, with worse pay and work environments than any dentist, accountant, lawyer, CEO, sales person, or software engineer that I have ever met.

Wages are inversely correlated with how hard you actually have to work, perversely

[MuffinFlavored]

> Wages are inversely correlated with how hard you actually have to work, perversely

You are right.

Why are cooks + janitors paid so little? Because that's their worth to the economy. A ton of people are willing to do that job because it is an "easy skill" with a low barrier of entry.

How do we get unskilled labor on STEM paths? I totally understand unequal opportunity not allowing everybody the same options, but at what point do we say "people aren't created equally, most cooks/janitors wouldn't be great engineers for reasons X, Y, Z"

Are the reasons because they never had the chance, or is it genetic?

[wcarron]

This is a completely separate discussion. I originally refuted your (completely asinine) quip about people who "do the minimum and be rewarded".

The rest of your comment is social-darwinistic horseshit based on nothing but prejudice and ignorance. Good day.

[MuffinFlavored]

I was poking at the fact that a lot of people want to give $8/hr workers $15/hr minimum wage.

What does that mean for all of the $12/hr workers now? What about the $16-$17/hr workers? Do they get raises too?

Do we just flat out raise all wages 50% overnight?

Society values X jobs at $8/hr. Bleeding hearts value them at $15/hr. Where's the middle ground?

[anigbrowl]

Please don't be a sealion. It doesn't make for productive discussion. Disagreement is one thing, but aggressively peppering people with questions until they get annoyed with you is not conducive to mutual understanding.

http://wondermark.com/1k62/

[ceejayoz]

Do you really think minimum wage always corresponds to minimum effort?

[MuffinFlavored]

No. I know that there are a few barriers keeping people near the "minimum worth" level:

1. education

2. language

3. physical/mental inability

What are some other ones?

[ceejayoz]

Ready availability of competing labor.

Minimum wage jobs are frequently difficult and labor-intensive, but the individual workers are replaceable. The idea that pay rate and effort required are perfectly linked is what I'm contesting.

[MuffinFlavored]

You are right. I was wrong to link "hard work" and "pay". I should have linked "skilled work" and "pay".

Don't people work hard to become more skilled though?

[ceejayoz]

That takes another scarce resource, time.

(And frequently money.)

[jotm]

Work hard for a living, even though it's minimum wage, knowing it's enough to support a life and family? Wasn't that the case 50 years ago? Too much to ask for today, I guess