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by byron_fast 2348 days ago
Even fewer Canadians understand why the U.S. didn't trust Canada with such an able aircraft. It's destruction was, sadly, the right choice.
4 comments

Personally I'm partial to the theory that it was cancelled to free up funding for the Diefenbunkers, because Canadian politicians preferred to hide underground and leave the plebians to get nuked.

It's probably not true, but it seems plausibly cynical.

That's a myth. The US government was offered the chance to buy the Arrow and all its intellectual property but declined.

It was a promising design but it was not the world-beating wonderplane that its reputation suggests.

For whatever it's worth, on twitter Chuck Yeager has said he wasn't a fan of the Avro Arrow. He didn't go into details though. He's well into his 90s, so maybe he doesn't remember the details anymore.

https://twitter.com/GenChuckYeager/status/936416735464366081

Probably because you couldn't dogfight with it.
Eh, maybe. But neither could the F-104 and he liked that plane. But the F-104 was also an American plane, so maybe that has something to do with it. Then again, he almost got himself killed in a rocket boosted NF-104.

https://twitter.com/GenChuckYeager/status/643965329115185152

https://twitter.com/GenChuckYeager/status/120470368609990656...

Yeah, maybe. But like in tech, it's easier to acquire or destroy a competitor than catch up.
The US was offered the chance to "acquire their competitor" and declined. So was the UK.

Meanwhile, American firms were testing prototypes that were faster and carried similar armament. Those prototypes were also cancelled.

There is no conspiracy here.

> Those prototypes were also cancelled.

Could you please name the program? AFAIK the 1954 interceptor program [1] was not cancelled, but perhaps you're talking about a different program.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WS-201

The XF-103 was an interceptor intended to do Mach 3 [1], the XF-108 likewise [2]. Both managed a single mockup each.

The XB-70 [3] and B-58 [4] was intended to be the other end of the stick, a bomber which could carry nuclear weapons and fly at high speed (mach 2-3) and altitude (>60k feet). Two XB-70s were built, and one of those was destroyed on a PR outing for General Electric. The B-58 was operational for a decade before being replaced - the change from high altitude, high speed to low altitude, low speed compromised its range and made it far too expensive to operate; the Arrow would probably have suffered the same problem.

The UK abandoned the TSR-2 [5] for similar reasons; the 1957 Defense White Paper reckoned the time of manned military aviation was over.

1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_XF-103

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_XF-108_Rapier

3: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_XB-70_Valkyrie

4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_B-58_Hustler

5: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BAC_TSR-2

Fair point, but these kinds of cancellations are not unusual. For example, YF-23 and X-32 were both cancelled due to losing the competition to YF-22 (later F-22) and X-35 (later F-35), respectively. So individual designs were cancelled, but not the original mission request.

Although all those programs were cancelled, both US and Soviets built a bunch of interceptors in the 60s and 70s, notably F-106 Dart and Su-15.

It's not a conspiracy. Just business as usual where tech is concerned. The USA didn't want to see this tech fall into enemy hands; it was easier and cheaper to see it killed and hire the engineers as they came available. Acquihire, government style during the Cold War.
> The USA didn't want to see this tech fall into enemy hands

I've heard this preposterous story several times and it never makes sense. If the US doesn't trust Canada to defend North America then explain NORAD (and the 5 Eyes for that matter).

No bureaucracy is homogeneous. Especially the pentagon.
It's not prepostorous. It's what it's like to be Canada - the smart upstart, in this respect - when you challenge the incumbent. Look to tech history for many similar examples.
Any references as to why they didn’t ?
The obvious, that it was "too expensive" like Israel's Lavi program: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/avro-iarro...

But there was the idea that the CIA didn't trust Canada to not sell it to an enemy of the USA. If the Arrow had existed under P. Trudeau, that was a justified fear.

..and then eventually, having no aerospace program, Canada goes on to buy F18s from America.

I think the Arrow was an economic threat couched in strategic language. The arrow was kick-ass long before 14s, 15s, 16s,18s entered the science. And yes, they have different mission scenarios, but like Avro wouldn't have owned that space. #disgruntledCanadian

How is it an economic threat when the US had the f-106 which was superior and flying sooner?
By expressing an opinion that is unpopular, my "karma" takes a hit. This is how Hacker News works, like Y Combinator: be popular, or STFU. Understandable in many respects for those who have maintained forums, but still unfortunate.
Ridiculous.

Try expressing an opinion in a bar. If people like it, or if we’re persuasive, they buy us a round. If not, we get ignored at best.

Why would HN be any different? We’re all the same stuff, underneath a veneer of cheering for Tesla and Apple instead of the Leafs or Patriots.

Check my history. I’ve been upvoted, and downvoted. Upvoted is more pleasant, but we have to take the rough with the smooth.