[m0zg]

>> You mention 40/80k per year being pitiful? This kind of remuneration puts you in the top 10%/5% of France population easily.

That just means the rest of the population is poor, not that you should accept less. This is called a fallacy of relative privation. So what if you have to subsist on ramen and can't afford a place to live with less than an hour and a half of commute. Think of all those starving children in Uganda instead. That's how the ruling class shits in your head with propaganda.

As a professional you should be able to accomplish the minimum of: raising a couple of kids, buying a residence, putting quality food on the table, and sock away enough to not be poor when it's time to retire. You should aim to make more than enough money to do all of the above while maintaining a first world lifestyle.

If you're not able to do that in your profession, that fancy college degree is materially worse than a plumbing or electrical trade school certification.

[kungtotte]

I make $42K in Sweden (not in IT), and it's comfortably high middle class. My wife doesn't even work full time and it's still enough for us to live comfortably within our means (own a house, two cars, one kid, etc.)

If I'd been making $60K my wife could stop working. At $80K she wouldn't have to work and we'd still be moving into "new BMW every three years" kind of money.

$80K goes a lot further in Europe than it does in the US.

[m0zg]

Are you able to buy real estate in a decent location? Because if you can't, you're not "high middle class". Housing is not a luxury.

[kungtotte]

Yes, we are able to buy real estate in a decent location. We live not far outside Stockholm where prices are really high compared to the rest of the country, and we had no problems buying our house.

My salary is ~twice the median income for this area, and by any measure we're at the upper end of middle class by Swedish standards.

[hycaria]

Not far outside is a very lax definition. A 500K Mortgage (affordable with aforementioned salaries) gets you a 2 bedroom in good neighborhoods in Paris, 3 in lesser ones. Sure, if you're ready to go 20 km away you can get a rather nice house at that price (say 100-150m2 with a garden of variable size), but at the cost of commuting 30min-1hr everyday.

Anyways, I wouldn't consider someone establishing outside of an european city (esp when working there) "high middle class". If you can't afford central housing of your choice, you dont qualify.

[kungtotte]

A 2 room apartment in central Stockholm, 40m2 starts at $303000 right now (that's a current listing).

https://maps.app.goo.gl/PnrNuo2k3LsgaeG89

That apartment is 44km as the crow flies from my house, 55km by car (45-50min of driving).

Is your definition of "high middle class" really if we're able to afford central Stockholm housing?

[2rsf]

Don't forget public transportation which is non existent or bad in many places in the US, a 30-45 minutes on a Stockholm Metro or train takes down the prices significantly. Those 300,000$ can buy you a nice semi detached and you won't need a car on a daily basis.

[m0zg]

On 42K/yr pre (crazy) tax? Tell me more about how that works.

[theodric]

American who has spent 16 years in Europe (Ireland, Netherlands, Switzerland).

> $80K goes a lot further in Europe than it does in the US.

I would like to see evidence supporting this assertion. Luxury meats are about the only thing I can think of that are more expensive stateside.

[kungtotte]

We pay $100 per month for daycare which is open 6:30 to 18:30 if we need it for that long.

School costs us nothing out of pocket.

Our grand total out of pocket medical costs for our kid thus far (turns 4 in March) is around $500. Including any medication we've ever bought for him. Half of that $500 went to spending Monday through Friday at the hospital when he was born, in a hotel style room with three meals a day included for the both of us.

We didn't need private health insurance for that, nor have it provided by either employer.

We also received 480 paid parental leave days to be split between us (90 reserved for her, 90 for me, the remaining 300 at our discretion).

That's some evidence right there. I have no numbers from the countries you mentioned though. The difference there could be smaller.

[genS3]

yeah surely your family has good dental for paying only 500$ medical costs.

[kungtotte]

I didn't say dental, or "family". I said we paid $500 for our son's medical costs, not for the whole family.

His dental is completely free until he turns 23. Same as for anyone living in Sweden.

[exdsq]

Depends where in Europe you are.

$80k in London as a single 20-something is great and you might be able to save a little while living central, while for a family of 4 it'd be much tighter and you'd live further out of the city.

$80k in Manchester and you'll have a comfortable life as a family of 4.

$80k in Poland and you'll be laughing in a luxury flat somewhere with no financial worries.

Europe is a large place and for the majority of countries and cities that is enough money to live extremely comfortably.

As for evidence, the average median salary in Europe is 16943€ or $18,947. The average salary in the US is three times this amount so sure - it goes 'a lot further in Europe'.

[badpun]

$80k a year in the US (assuming you live outside of a few of very high cost of living locations) will easily net you a new BMW every three years, esp. given that they're much cheaper than in Sweden.

[ptr]

What’s your source on BMW prices? Afaik, cars are about the same price in Sweden and the US.

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

Check the VW Golf comparison. I also did a quick search for a BMW i8, the price in Sweden was ~10x in SEK than the price in USD (1 USD = 9.41 SEK), and I don’t know whether taxes were included in the US price, probably not.

[xyzzyz]

In the US, the MSRP for new VW Golf is around $22k, so you can probably get one for $20k or less if you shop around the dealerships. On top of that $20k, you'll pay sales tax, which is 10% in most expensive places, and usually something like 6-8%.

When comparing BMW prices, don't look at some weird cars that nobody buys like i8, look at popular BMWs. For example, 2020 BMW X5 here costs something around $70k, depending on the features.

[snak]

While I agree with you on some points, the cost of life in European countries is not the same as USA.

[m0zg]

The taxes are also much higher in Europe, especially on those compliant "upper middle class" techies we're talking about here. For anyone with basic understanding of arithmetics it's not even a question that EU techies are woefully underpaid, which is why all the good ones work in the US or for EU subsidiaries of US companies which actually respect the engineers.

[brulard]

I don't believe this is the case. In central Europe (Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary) you can have < 20 - 25% effective taxes even including basic health insurance. In german speaking countries (Austria, Germany) you get twice the salary but that goes with higher taxes. AFAIK in US just the health insurance is very expensive.

EDIT: (using the most tax-effective form of employment, which most of the time is working as a contractor. Being a full-time employee comes with so much higher taxes in EU)

[rayiner]

> AFAIK in US just the health insurance is very expensive.

In the US, someone like a programmer would get their health insurance paid for by their employer as additional compensation on top of their already much higher salary. The vast majority of Americans either get health insurance through their employer or are retired and are eligible for Medicare. Employers on average pay 82% of premiums for a single person, leaving on average $1,200 paid by the worker. For someone like a programmer, it’s common for employees to pay the whole premium. When you look at US salaries, that additional compensation is on top of the reported salary. So although health insurance is very expensive, you’re mostly not paying it out of the reported salary.

[jimbokun]

I believe the deductibles on that insurance will also be much, much higher, though, than most systems in Europe.

So out of pocket expenses for the Amercian are going to be much, much higher.

[rayiner]

> So out of pocket expenses for the Amercian are going to be much, much higher.

Not in comparison to the salary difference: https://www.oecd.org/health/health-systems/OECD-Focus-on-Out.... About $500/year difference between USA and France.

[mtberatwork]

> AFAIK in US just the health insurance is very expensive.

Health care, housing, education, retirement are incredibly expensive in the US. Day-to-day life in the US is also quite expensive for most Americans. Most people in the US are in massive amounts of debt with little to no savings.

[m0zg]

> Poland, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary

The salaries that are considered "acceptable" in those countries would result in a _negative_ effective tax rate in the US. Tax rate alone is not everything. It's a combination of pretax pay and the effective tax rate that you need to be considering.

[badpun]

For washing dishes, yes. But senior developers make around $60k in major cities. Throw 19% all-inclusive tax rate on top of that.

[m0zg]

Those same people would be making $250-300K in the US, with about 25-30% effective tax rate (depending on the state), and healthcare mostly paid for by the employer. Assuming they're actually senior and get paid that much in Eastern Europe.

[iso1210]

In the UK, someone on £80k ($105k) will pay £25k ($33k) in tax. That includes healthcare

In the US, someone on that amount in Denver will pay $29k in tax.

That's not an extraordinary difference, even before you factor in health care costs.

[jbms]

It's an extraordinary difference when you look at what proportion of engineers (outside of London/Finance) earn £80k in the UK vs $105k in Denver.

[iso1210]

That isn't a tax thing though - payroll/income taxes are roughly the same.

[2rsf]

> arithmetics

true, but you should calculate everything- highly subsidized education, public transportation and medical, generous grants for students, more vacation days, long parental leave etc.

[romanovtexas]

Except plumbing or electrical trade school certification doesn't help you achieve that either

[m0zg]

At least you don't need to spend 4+ years on a degree that's not worth anything.

Don't know how accurate this list is, but I'm pretty sure an electrician in my area wouldn't even want to get out of bed in the morning for 40K euro per year.

https://www.buildingtalk.com/tradesmen-around-the-world-whic...