[danans]

> It places Bitcoin on the side of personal freedom and on a collision course with some of the world's biggest governments, including the US.

And until and unless you can use it to purchase the goods and services needed for daily life, and the military and police forces needed to secure the supplies lines of those, it will be at best a theoretical form of personal freedom.

Even if Bitcoin doesn't rely on trust, the rest of the functions of human society do.

[thebean11]

Not sure I understand how the military is going to stop individuals from exchanging goods within a country, are you suggesting the US/Chinese/Some other military would stop the flow of everyday goods into its own country to prevent Bitcoin transactions?

[dragonwriter]

> Not sure I understand how the military is going to stop individuals from exchanging goods within a country

States stop the exchange of goods within, into, or out of their jurisdiction of types or in manners not sanctioned by the state all the time, it's called “law enforcement”, and either the military or paramilitary police forces or both are often involved in it. It's never airtight, but it doesn't have to be to have a big effect.

[danans]

If the volume of crypto currency transactions ended up becoming a threat to the functioning of the state (through loss of the power of taxation), then yes.

But anyways, isn't that pretty much the anarcho-capitalist vs statist conflict that cryptocurrencies are ultimately trying to aim us towards?

[thebean11]

Yes meaning the military would starve a country to root out crypto users? In that scenario, you're unable to use crypto because no goods exist to buy (meaning dollars are useless as well)?

Sorry if I'm completely misunderstanding your argument, but having trouble reading it in a different way.

[danans]

> In that scenario, you're unable to use crypto because no goods exist to buy (meaning dollars are useless as well)?

The state will take over the entire supply chain to ensure that it transacts in a currency that it controls, crypto or otherwise.

Without that, the shared physical and legal infrastructure that supply chain depends on would cease to exist, and with it the supply chain.

Individuals, or the small communes that act financially as individuals in the crypto based trading system would have to trade in the simplest raw materials and finished products would be all have to be made hyper locally. Otherwise what entity would secure the transit of high value finished goods from supplier to customer?

I understand that it's a vision of the future that many people relish for its "freedom" from the state (but not so much from the local tribe). But universal crypto based transactions are not a drop in replacement for what we have now that keeps everything else the same. They come with their own radically different future-primitive vision for the world.

[thebean11]

Taking over the entire supply chain is completely impossible though, black markets will always exist, and not just for simple raw materials.

Another aspect of crypto is the ability to simply leave the oppressor's territory, taking your money with you.

I'm absolutely not saying this is a perfect solution, or that government is powerless in this situation, but it seems hand wavey to say they'll just seize control of every economic transaction. That's a VERY difficult thing to do.

[danans]

> Taking over the entire supply chain is completely impossible though

And it's unnecessary. Black markets exist today and always will. The state would need to merely take over the major suppliers of raw inputs to all products, and major finished products, and that will be enough to keep crypto only relevant on the margins. If black markets become a problem due to crime (i.e. the mafia) they can be dealt with using law enforcement action.

> Another aspect of crypto is the ability to simply leave the oppressor's territory, taking your money with you.

I agree, and you will also leave behind many of the benefits that come from societies that have centralized organization, like i.e. roads and a justice system. No territory with a state that provides infrastructure is going to allow you to operate there indefinitely without paying for the privilege of using that infrastructure.

You will have to find a place with effectively no state, and provide the basics for yourself. But it would be hard, and it's not something that can scale to our current society's scale or prosperity, though.