[nxoxn]

I find this whole series of events to be fascinating. I'm also very interested in what Ghosn has to say on the 8th. I have only read briefly on Japan's prison system and from what I understand it assumes guilt.

It's hard to infer what might have happened. Leading up to his arrest in Japan there were mentions that he had treated his co-officers in a "un-Japanese" way and was suspected to have lead to his being targeted to be removed.

It's also interesting how this how debacle has caused Nissan to suffer. It really seems like Nissan was about to turn around their design and car interiors (the new Maxima, Altima, Sentra, and Versa have gotten big boosts) and then this hits them hard.

I hope Nissan pulls through and I hope the truth about Ghosn comes out.

[JohnJamesRambo]

Having just read his wikipedia, it seems this goes very much deeper than treating someone in an "un-Japanese" way.

>Nissan was paying all or some of the costs at some amount of US$18 million for residences used by Ghosn in Rio de Janeiro, Beirut, Paris and Amsterdam, and that Ghosn charged family vacation expenses to the company.

And the list goes on and on...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Ghosn#Arrest_in_Tokyo_a...

>Nissan compliance auditors began trying to track Zi-A activity in 2014 but were stymied at first by the chain of shell companies used in Zi-A investments.

>Nissan funds were used to purchase Ghosn's Paris apartment in 2005, and Zi-A funds were used to purchase his $5 million beachfront Rio apartment in 2012 and his Beirut mansion, which, with renovations, cost over $15 million.

>In addition, to avoid reporting the full amount of his compensation in Nissan financials, as required by Japanese law beginning in 2010, Ghosn had Kelly structure complicated deferred payment plans which went unreported under an aggressive interpretation of the disclosure rules which Nissan's outside auditors had not signed off on, and which totaled around $80 million at the time of his arrest eight years later.

He's just your typical CEO criminal and should be in a cell next to murderers and drug kingpins.

Nissan stock in 2018 - $21. Today - $11.67.

[ninjin]

Indeed, it is also perfectly possible for the Japanese legal system to have serious issues [1] and Ghosn to have far from clean hands.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Japan#Judicial...

[dynamite-ready]

Posting the share price at the end of your post is reasonable, sure. But to be fair to Ghosn, much of Nissan's success in the past 20 years can be attributed to him - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46321097

Doesn't excuse any alleged crimes, but I didn't think it was entirely fair to surmise his career at Nissan with a reference to today's share price. Despite all that's written about CEOs, salaries, and correlated efficacy...

[JohnJamesRambo]

I checked other automakers’ stock prices and didn’t see anything like this Nissan dip since 2018. It seems likely he is to blame for the poor performance. Yes he may have been responsible for some of the company’s success but that doesn’t allow him to skim 100s of millions of dollars from the top. He was more than adequately compensated already.

Also it is hard to say how much he was responsible for Nissan’s turnaround. In reading his wiki I kept seeing things that I knew took lots of hard work from people below him yet it is always attributed to the CEO.

[ceejayoz]

The "Investigations in other countries" bit is also a problem for the "un-Japanese" theory, too. France and the US SEC went after him, as well.

[fennecfoxen]

The business with the SEC was entirely reasonable — and he has settled with them. It would make a lot of sense to handle this dispute in the boardroom, first. It makes plenty of sense to handle this with the SEC or a similar regulatory agency.

It is much less defensible to invite the national news media to his arrest, lock the man up without access to his lawyers for months on end, and then go on a fishing expedition to find some reason to justify the arrest after the fact. Besides the routine abrogation of justice in Japan, of which this is only a minor instance, this practice takes a situation which might risk appearing corrupt and politically motivated, and doubles down on the politics and the appearance of corruption.

[ceejayoz]

The point is, he committed serious enough offenses to get a ten year ban from running a public company in the US for a decade.

The SEC is unlikely to have gone after him just because he didn't act sufficiently Japanese.

[fennecfoxen]

He most certainly was not banned from running a public company in the US for a decade because of his offenses. He agreed not to run any companies that reported to the SEC, and the SEC agreed to drop its case.

(And if you believe that settling a case without admitting guilt is the same as guilt, I would hate to see what you think of criminal plea bargains in the US, which are much more common, and many of which are far worse abrogations of justice.)

[ceejayoz]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-23/sec-accus...

> Ghosn was barred from serving as a director or officer of a public company for 10 years, while Kelly agreed to a five-year ban.

[tonyedgecombe]

Isn’t this fairly typical for Japanese corporations, that senior management might have their home paid for by the company?

There are smells coming from both sides of this dispute.

[JumpCrisscross]

> Isn’t this fairly typical for Japanese corporations, that senior management might have their home paid for by the company?

There are also the funds paid to companies affiliated with his wife and son. Both Nissan and Renault’s Boards found these surprising, which is ultimately why he lost the latter’s support.

There are smells on both sides. The simplest explanation is Ghosn is dirty and the Japanese criminal justice system is biased. The fact that the former is now an international fugitive somewhat simplifies his criminality in most jurisdictions.

[yborg]

The CEO to rank and file pay disparity in Japanese companies has traditionally been much lower than in Western corporations, and the compensation of non-Japanese executives (of which there have been very few) has rankled the Japanese in the past. Paying for a condo in Tokyo is one thing, beach houses in Rio is another, this would be outrageous by Japanese standards if true.

[Danieru]

No, not at all. Japan has some of the most egalitarian CEO pay in developed countries.

Ghosn exploited his position and muddied waters. He paid himself 3 CEO salaries and yet continuously claimed to be under paid.

To claim Nissan, an entity Ghosn controlled, was somehow equally as guilty is what-about-ism.

[fennecfoxen]

You seem to basically be saying that we should consider Ghosn to be guilty of crimes because he was an outsider whose attitude wasn't sufficiently Japanese. To me this seems to reinforce his position, rather than yours.

[Danieru]

I said nothing of the sort, please do not troll on hacker news.

[tonyedgecombe]

It certainly wasn't what-about-ism, rather that I suspect the prosecution is politically and/or commercially motivated.

[dclowd9901]

Right. He’s just mad the Japanese court system doesn’t throw anyone a bone. Even rich folk.

[meddlepal]

Any court system that assumes guilt is a bullshit one. The Japanese legal system seems to be designed to get people to admit guilt so the process ends quickly. That's a garbage-fire of a legal system.

[babarock]

"presumption of innocence until proven guilty" is a Human Right (article 11 of https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/)

[fennecfoxen]

It would be more fair to say "the Japanese court system presumes guilt and treats everyone like inhuman garbage, even rich folk."

There was a fun incident in the UN where an ambassador from Japan made a remark that Japan's justice system was modern and exemplary. Everyone in the room just laughed at him. (He got upset, and told everyone to shut up, and then got fired for his outburst.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYfHWsWJhtg

_Death Note_ is a documentary.

[coldtea]

>>Nissan was paying all or some of the costs at some amount of US$18 million for residences used by Ghosn in Rio de Janeiro, Beirut, Paris and Amsterdam, and that Ghosn charged family vacation expenses to the company.

>And the list goes on and on...

As if that specific item above is something special? Tons of execs do just the same, and nobody bats an eye.

Some people at Nissan/Japan wanted to get the "outsider"...

[qaq]

This vs WeWork founder taking out loans from We buying properties and leasing them back to WeWork.

[glofish]

For me the sentences such as:

Nissan was paying all or some of the costs at some amount of US$18 million for residences used by Ghosn in Rio de Janeiro, Beirut, Paris and Amsterdam, and Ghosn charged family vacation expenses to the company

sound like pure BS ... that the CEO of a company that sells 10 million cars per year charged a family vacation ... none of us are aware of what his contract states, what he was promised etc.

Jumping on the "criminal CEO" bandwagon is tiring stuff. MY hat off to Mr. Gosh, not only did he manage well three gigantic companies, he managed himself just as well, skipped the BS charges and got himself out of Japan. That's a genius manager right there.

[moralsupply]

And he did all of that in a non-violent way, which makes the whole case about prosecution and jail (with guilt implied, as customary in Japan) absurd.

[selimthegrim]

Think he’ll get another manga but this time about his escape?

[gimmeThaBeet]

I think the part that makes it a little more unambiguous is that Renault and the French government definitely gave him much more of the benefit of the doubt, but ultimately decided it was untenable to act like he wasn't up to financial shenanigans. But at the same time, I think France has already said they wouldn't extradite him. That's where I think the thing goes muddy, that he really has French friends even if he also got ousted from the Renault side as well.

Part of me thinks there is a chance that maybe this kind of financial misdeed is not all too uncommon, and it may indeed be a case of "it's not a problem unless you're a problem." but given the scope of money and questionable expenses already tied to him, it doesn't seem like fabrication or embellishment is needed.

I feel like what I get from this story is, if you were looking to get Carlos Ghosn out, you didn't have too look too hard.

[mytailorisrich]

France does not extradite its own citizens. By saying that they wouldn't extradite him they have just repeated the legal position.

They must be relieved that he didn't fly to France as that would have been quite embarrassing for them. He probably calculated that he was safest in Lebanon, though.

[temac]

> France does not extradite its own citizens. By saying that they wouldn't extradite him they have just repeated the legal position.

Inconsequential nitpick: I'm not even sure this is a position formalized by anything, IIRC it is more like a tradition, although a very consistent one. But there have been a few exceptions, btw, like Aurore Martin extradited to Spain while Manuel Valls was the minister of interior, but this was in the context of a European arrest warrant (however, this was for a political issue, so it could have been easily blocked by the executive instead of authorized).

[himinlomax]

It's not just a tradition but more of a non-starter kind of thing as there is no process or framework in the first place. Countries that extradite their own citizens have jurisprudence, procedures and institutions to that effect.

European arrest warrants are different in that they operate under the idea of European citizenship, and that member countries have compatible and comparable legal frameworks. Also the ultimate authority is with the ECJ and ECHR, same as if the accused was tried locally.

> however, this was for a political issue, so it could have been easily blocked by the executive instead of authorized

As I understand it, the executive typically has the power to decide whether an (actual, international) extradition should go forward or not after the judiciary has decided that someone _can_ be extradited. After all, it's a matter of international relations.

But European arrest warrants are different, precisely because relations between member countries are not a matter of executive power. Instead, that authority lies in European institutions. In this case, either government would have had to refer to the ECJ if they did not agree.

[mytailorisrich]

It's actually French law, the exception being the European arrest warrant as you mention (and that only applies if the alleged offence is also an offence in France). Depending on the circumstances the person may face trial in France, though.

[greatpatton]

France honores EU arrest warrants, as requested by European treaties.

[ehnto]

I just don't see their upcoming success. They haven't kept pace with the industry in technology, their styling has not just been behind, but dated from release. They killed off their hero franchises. They've re-segmented almost every one of the line, leaving brand fans and previous buyers without upgrade paths.

- Pathfinder 4x4, a capable cult loved offroader, now a luxury SUV

- Navara Utility vehicle, industry and consumer favorite - Now a gigantic Americanized "truck" unwanted by other markets, and better served in America by local manufacturers

- Skyline, middle market sports Car variants, inspired a generation of enthusiasts, now pedestrian cars on a slow platform, and an entirely separate franchise of unaffordable supercars

- Silvia affordable sports cars - as above, but with no replacement

- Stagea sports family wagon - no replacement

- Maxima/Pintara/Ciefro/Laurel affordable family cars - Somehow now their flagship aimed at people who would rather a Eurocar

Their only line I think will continue to be successful is the Leaf. But I suspect EVs are going to be getting pretty competitive over the next decade.

It would be sad to see them go, but I also don't think we'll be missing out on anything from their future if now was when they died.

This is from a Nissan fanboy. I have had 7 Nissans. At one point I had a Nissan to tow my Nissan to go race other Nissans. I've downsized, and now have just the one car and some bicycles.

[fennecfoxen]

> They haven't kept pace with the industry in technology

This is among the reasons Ghosn was proposing a merger: the alliance was supposed to help them share R&D costs, particularly on electric vehicles, but they weren't doing nearly enough on that front.

[look_lookatme]

They did put a Cummins in the Titan XD, which will give that truck line a sales boost, despite the new design being ugly as hell.

[ehnto]

That's interesting! In Australia, the Navara that the Titan was borne from was always a 4 cylinder turbo diesel. Other markets using the smaller turbo diesels is what inspired Cummins to bring out their 4 cylinder crate motor in the US for project 4x4 swaps. The idea is they're a great alternative to petrol V8s and a much more efficient and lightweight package than a Cummins 6 or 8. You can get all the torque you could ever want for 4x4 out of a 2.5 litre turbo diesel, and they'll fit in anything. I suspect the Titan is more aimed at towing though, so no surprise they've got the bigger Cummins.

[solarkraft]

> Their only line I think will continue to be successful is the Leaf.

The new Leaf is arguably over priced, spec/price wise.

[sixQuarks]

I’m somewhat involved in the automotive industry, and a lot of insiders consider what happened to Ghosn as being a coup by Japanese executives who detested him being an outsider. If this is the case, they really did him dirty and I support him fleeing the country.

[dynamite-ready]

The whole 'gaijin' side-story is hard to ignore, given all that's written in the western press about Japan, and it's attitude towards migrants. But there's surely no smoke without fire in a case like this, because it should be fairly easy to prove some degree of innocence in crimes of this nature.

It has been interesting to gain a little insight into how pernicious the Japanese judiciary can be though.

The story of the artist Megumi Igarashi is especially funny (yet also disturbingly sexist)...

Ghosn though, is far from funny. But fleeing the country is a pretty sketchy response to a criminal charge.

[DebtDeflation]

>But fleeing the country is a pretty sketchy response to a criminal charge.

He was facing a 20 year prison sentence in a country with a 99.7% conviction rate. The trial was to take place later this year. He's 65 years old. I have no idea whether he's guilty of the charges but the reality of the situation he faced was that his only two choices were flee now or likely spend the rest of his life in prison.

[SimbaOnSteroids]

Japanese conviction rates exceed 99%, he's 65 years old and facing 20 years. It's not really that surprising he fled, I have a hard time believing that any of us in a similar circumstance and with similar means wouldn't do the same. He was faced with an A | B choice. A: Stay and die in prison. B: Flee and maybe not get caught for a hot minute, eventually get caught, die in prison.

[PunchTornado]

yeah, right, poor rich man. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Ghosn#Arrest_in_Tokyo_a...

> In September, in one of the first legal accords of the saga, Ghosn settled with the U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission over claims of failing to disclose more than $140 million in pay to him from Nissan. He was fined $1 million while Nissan was fined $15 million and Greg Kelly $100,000. He is barred from serving as a director or officer of a public company for ten years and Kelly for five years

Even in the US he was caught.

He used company funds for himself. It's pretty clear. If an average man would have done that he would have been paying it already, but he is a rich man so he could escape.

[tomatotomato37]

The truth about Ghosn is that he was committing fraud while living in a country that also happens to have an awful judicial system. There isn't a virtuous side in this conflict, there's just two shady entities working against one another.

[s_dev]

>I hope the truth about Ghosn comes out.

It's been reported he oversaw accounting irregularities regarding his compensation i.e. fancy embezzelment with Nissan which is why there is a warrant for his arrest.