[starsinspace]

So Sonos devices need "activation" via some server on the internet? Why? If I just want to stream audio within my own home, why is internet even necessary? And what happens when Sonos goes out of business and the servers are shut down?

I just don't understand why people keep buying such things...

[shock]

I recently bought a couple of Netgear Managed Switches (for Business)⁰ and in their datasheet they list "Local-only management" as a feature. Only after they arrived we discovered that you only get limited functionality in the Local-only management mode, you have to register the switches to your Netgear Cloud account to get access to the full functionality.

Reading up on it, this was achieved only after a community outcry because in the prior firmware versions the switch would have to connect to the Netgear Cloud on every bootup.

Needless to say I would not have bought the swiches if I had knew I needed to register them to Netgear Cloud to have access to the full functionality specified in the data sheet. If I had bought them as a consumer, not as a business, I would have returned them immediately.

Netgear are now on our purchasing blacklist.

⓪ - the switches are Netgear GS-108Tv3

[jacquesm]

You should return them to the middleman, accompanied with a small note about the false advertising and claim a full refund. Make sure to order something from the same vendor that does work.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

They seem to be one of the few brands that give good audio quality and modern convenience at the same time.

For example, I was looking for a device that would (1) be placeable on my living room furniture[1], and let me use a couple of trusty Monitor Audio speakers both (2) for playing music (e.g. from my phone, computer or streaming sources like Spotify) and (3) for TV audio, as those speakers sound much better than a modern soundbar. And that (4) could be expandable to surround sound in the future.

I painstakingly examined alternatives in the market. There were many devices that covered the three latter points but the overwhelming majority were AV receivers, which looked great from the audio and flexibility standpoint but were at least 30 cm deep. Not useful for me, as the furniture in my living room is 28 cm deep (wasn't the point of flat screen TVs to no longer need deep furniture taking lots of space in the living room?). I found like 5 or 6 devices that would physically fit. But most of them had no flexibility for surround expansion AND no WiFi, only Bluetooth playback.

Finally, only two devices ticked my boxes and physically fit: HEOS AVR (around €1000, 27.4 cm deep) and Sonos Amp (around €600, 21.69 cm deep) which wasn't even out yet.

Since 27.4 cm deep was still quite dubious for my 28-cm-deep furniture, I finally waited for the Sonos to come out and bought it. Sonos wasn't especially on my radar, as a relatively traditional audio amateur it's not a brand I trusted, but there they were, the only ones offering the product I wanted. And indeed, it works well, it powers my speakers nicely enough and it's very convenient. I'm watching the TV, want to stream something from Spotify: TV audio is automatically muted. I stop listening to Spotify: TV audio comes back.

Why no one else has made a device that can provide good TV audio and good music playback in a shallow form factor still escapes me. I don't think my requirements were so weird, in freaking 2018.

[1] Sorry, I'm missing the specific English word for the specific piece of furniture in the living room where one has a bunch of books, CDs, mixed souvenirs and the TV, so I'll just call it "the living room furniture".

[DarkStar851]

The word you're looking for is "entertainment center", but yeah, weird there aren't more products available for that niche! There are lots of home AV receivers that might fit the bill but they tend to be pretty large units.

[WiseWeasel]

I feel like 30cm max depth is going to be a problem for most audio gear. So-called compact ones seem to optimize for height, with depth around 40cm [1], and the shallower ones [2, 3] seem to be around 31-33cm. Get a deeper console?

[1] https://www.crutchfield.com/S-JPQM9erNVfS/p_642NR1609/Marant...

[2] https://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-7-2-ch-with-dolby-atmos-4k...

[3] https://www.crutchfield.com/S-5ZKPlNFrS4r/p_022RXV585/Yamaha...

[Al-Khwarizmi]

So that's precisely my point: convenience. My option was:

- Bend over backwards to buy from other audio brands, by throwing away my perfectly functional and nice designer furniture and replacing it with something deeper, that would take more space, probably be (IMHO) uglier and fit the room worse, and annoy my partner who doesn't care for audio as much as I do.

- Buy the Sonos Amp because it does the job while being small and fitting my existing furniture without further ado.

It was an easy choice...

I understand and respect that in homes where audio is a really high priority, they will plan the room around it and have deep enough furniture. On the other extreme, people who don't care much about audio just are happy buying any of the multiple sound bars in the market that fit anywhere. But if you are in the middle ground, i.e. you want a compromise between good audio quality and convenience, it seems that Sonos is practically the only brand that cares. At least in the case of an amp/receiver, that's the case, as I explained. And I suppose this is an important component of Sonos's success (and what surprises me is that others don't do the same...).

[lostlogin]

> Why no one else has made a device that can provide good TV audio and good music playback in a shallow form factor still escapes me. I don't think my requirements were so weird, in freaking 2018.

Am I right in thinking that Sonos fits your requirements? I've found their speakers to be excellent in a small package. I was after the 5s but someone lent me a One as a test. A pair of them are excellent imho.

[Al-Khwarizmi]

Yes, that's what I was saying: that no one else [except Sonos] has made a device that fits my requirements. Sonos did, I bought the Sonos Amp for my speakers.

[timc3]

I cut a hole in the back of my living room furniture so that the AV receiver sticks out the back and seeing as rooms often have skirting boards it gives me the few extra centimeters needed.

Obviously not the route for everyone!

[majormajor]

The convenience seems to be worth the risk, IMO. The Sonos sound quality is great for the form factor/space, I don't have to run wires anymore, and I'm not lugging around a bunch of bookshelves and making room for them + a receiver... I'll go back to that world if I have to, but for now, the Sonos stuff was more appealing after a couple moves and starting from scratch.

This recycle mode stuff is terrible, though.

[secabeen]

Because they want to stream audio from streaming services, which have APIs that change regularly, and require some level of DRM and subscription management. If you just want to stream audio from a local server, buy a squeezebox device. (They went under a few years back, the demand wasn't there, but they did have exactly the setup you want)

[TeMPOraL]

> stream audio from streaming services, which have APIs that change regularly, and require some level of DRM and subscription management

That's a good point and it makes it even more important to push back - abusive, customer-hostile business models don't just affect the direct customers, they spread and infect everything downstream.

[ryandrake]

Sonos is a particularly horrible company though, with software particularly hostile to end-users. There are many cases where they actively prevent you from using the device that you bought.

When a software update becomes available, you can no longer use the Sonos app or connect to a Sonos device, making the device essentially unusable, until you update your software.

When Sonos, for example, changes their Terms of Service to be even more draconian, you must accept the terms or the device ceases to function [1].

They require ridiculous access to personal information like location [2].

1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15071120

2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21771491

Everything this terrible company does shows that they consider themselves the true owners of the devices they manufacture even after you purchase them. I will never buy another product from them.

[secabeen]

> They require ridiculous access to personal information like location [2].

I know I'm late on this, but both Android and iOS require location permission to get any access to WiFi scans or AP MAC address data. Sonos software scans to discover new devices, and that scan requires those permissions. If you can get a list of nearby APs, you can use the skyhook database to discern location. Thus, location permission is required in order to setup new devices.

[TeMPOraL]

Thanks. I've never bought anything from Sonos so far, but after everything I've read here and in this thread, I'm blacklisting the company and will advise anyone I know to do so too.

[Skunkleton]

Because it is super convenient to set up, works well, and it is non obvious how it is harmful.

[ReverseCold]

> I just don't understand why people keep buying such things...

You can't really tell if the device can be remotely bricked (that easily) or unless someone's already been burned. I miss when companies would advertise their products as "cloud-enabled" so you knew exactly what to avoid.

[benologist]

Sonos don't need to go out of business to shut down the servers.

[jjtheblunt]

When expensive devices have to "phone home" to first be enabled, that kills the aftermarket for stolen expensive devices?

[fiblye]

People still steal smartphones, despite them being locked down with thumb and face scanners along with being traceable. It seems to be a hard market to kill.

[acdha]

The thing which really reduced iPhone thefts in the U.S. wasn’t biometrics: it was the carriers begrudgingly cooperating on activation locks. Not being able to get cellular connectivity really took the value out of it since someone couldn’t just pay a disinterested retail store employee to activate a suspiciously cheap phone.

[michaelmrose]

I feel bad about it but I rather wish it worked this way for expensive power tools. I don't want permanent drm for tools I just want a one time lock that is forever disabled upon purchase. Perhaps electronically while being purchased.

[jessaustin]

I can't imagine any of the contractors I've hired successfully navigating the setup for DRM-enabled power tools, let alone the inevitable hiccups when working in unnetworked areas etc. I'm not talking about Harbor Freight scumbags like myself. I'm talking about the valuable trend followers who have a new cordless from Dewalt or Ryobi or Milwaukee every six months and buy more expensive items regularly as well. Those guys cannot handle DRM shenanigans, and will forever despise with a burning passion any firm that inflicts such upon them.

[fourthark]

Why?

[michaelmrose]

So that I would have to chase fewer scumbags who constantly steal to sell tools on craigslist/facebook market/pawn shops to support their drug habits.

[mikeyouse]

I don't think most people realize how incredibly pervasive theft from construction sites is. Residential / commercial - it doesn't matter. There are organized groups who spend a ton of time and energy breaking into tool lockers or into actual buildings under construction. Work equipment is very expensive, often portable, and has great resale value.

[fourthark]

Doesn’t seem like a “one time lock that is forever disabled upon purchase“ would work for your use case. You’d need Apple-style Find My / Brick My stuff.

[michaelmrose]

I'm more thinking about the retail end. Any lock which could be used after purchase is a danger to the users freedom. Although a decentralized solution is certainly possible. For example requiring the tool to talk to the users server I cannot imagine it being practical in the context of users today.

[seriesf]

That isn't accurate. Sonos works perfectly well on an isolated network, reading your music from a local SMB share or getting it from the line-level input of any Sonos on the network.

[aidos]

Unfortunately Sonos just seems to work well out of the box.

Since we’re here, does someone have a good opensource alternative? Plug and play multi room audio streaming from Spotify et al?

[dsr_]

Have you seen volumio.org ?

You can do everything from running it on a Raspberry Pi to buying a fully put-together high-end system. Open source software.

[ObsoleteNerd]

I love Volumio. I have a couple of RPis around the house plugged into external powered speakers (PC style Logitech 2.1 sets) and one in my kids room plugged into a little mini speaker.

It can play everything from MP3s to Spotify to Internet Radio, and has a really nice web interface.

It’s such a great project that deserves a lot more attention.