[sebasmurphy]

Not sure if this is still the case or not but at Maryland circa. 2007-2010 it was school policy that no class could have attendance factored into the grade. If you wanted to skip every class and only show up for exams, that was your choice. Privacy implications aside, I feel that this should be the case everywhere since college is effectively a business transaction. What you decide to do with the product after you've paid should be entirely up to you.

[mnm1]

Seriously. I was lowered an entire grade in one class for not attending despite my work being of the highest quality. Attendance was not even listed as part of the grade on the syllabus so I was graded on something without even being told ahead of time. Teachers that do that should be fired. As should teachers that lose your midterm. But I doubt anyone cares about the students and the impact things like this have on them. Then we wonder why people cheat at the highest levels of our society. Because our society and education system encourages them to cheat by showing students in the harshest way possible that the rules are stacked against them and the playing field is uneven. And I paid over $100k to have my work devalued while being treated like an infant.

[QuesnayJr]

There are very few universities where you can be graded on something that is not on the syllabus.

People cheat in life because the rewards are so high, not because they had a bad experience in college. Someone who uses a bad experience in college is just looking for an excuse.

[mnm1]

So you expect people to act counter to everything they've been taught in life? That shows a deep understanding of the human condition.

[astura]

> I was graded on something without even being told ahead of time

Ever heard of a pop quiz?

[kingbirdy]

Pop quizzes have always been included in the syllabus's grading rubric in every class I've ever taken that has them. The date of the quiz is the surprise, not the fact that it exists and will be part of your grade.

[oh_sigh]

Pop quizzes should be used to give the teacher information about what the students are actually understanding vs not understanding, not to actually determine a student's grade in a class.

[jeltz]

Nope, never had one. We do not do those in my country.

[mnm1]

Ever heard pop quiz testing on material that wasn't part of the class or even the subject? Me neither.

[savolai]

That’s not the kind of unexpected situation the comment you are replying to is referring to at all. If the rules are not set in advance, they are basically arbitrary.

[sebasmurphy]

After reading other peoples comments I would like to add that there were a few classes freshman/sophomore year that had discussion sections that were mandatory. Although these were usually only held once a week. The few that I had usually had quizzes during the first 15 minutes or weekly homework due at the beginning of the session. The sections were mostly a way for the students to get face-time with the Grad Student teaching assistants since office hours were impractical for these classes due to their size (70+) . Sometimes you had to stay for the duration of the session and other times you could bounce after turning in your homework.

None of these sessions were instructor mandated. They were part of the normal course curriculum, and were chosen during class registration. The standard setup was M-W Lecture, Fri Discussion.

[jdkee]

I teach in political science and I require regular attendance as part of one's grade. Miss more than a few classes absent a compelling excuse and you are docked a half letter grade.

Why?

My classes are typically small, under 15 students, and are heavily discussion dependent. Engendering open discussion between students, as opposed to top-down lecturing, has resulted in keeping students engaged and actively learning in class. If a handful of people decide to skip a class that impacts both their learning outcome as well as it deprives their attending classmates additional and varied perspectives of the issues under discussion. Hence the incentive to attend.

Yes, these are all adults who are engaged in a "business" transaction with the college to be formally educated. However, the students have the opportunity to review the syllabus in advance and the class participation requirement is clearly stated.

[elfexec]

> Miss more than a few classes absent a compelling excuse and you are docked a half letter grade.

Why not give a half letter grade boost to those with good attendance rather than docking a half letter grade to someone who misses a few classes? Why not incentivize with a reward rather than a penalty? The carrot rather than the stick?

> However, the students have the opportunity to review the syllabus in advance and the class participation requirement is clearly stated.

That's fine if only you require attendance and most other professors don't and if your class isn't one of the mandatory classes. But if every professor requires attendance or if your class is mandatory, then students really have no choice when it comes to attendance.

[seditiousseals]

If the class is easy, then the half letter grade won't matter much and nearly everyone will get high scores, rendering attendance useless. If the class is curved, then boosting those that attend is functionally the same as penalizing those that do not.

[SauciestGNU]

Classes shouldn't be easy. I had the privilege as an American of studying at a university abroad that used the English system of marks, where a top grade began at 75%, and that was difficult to attain. The quality of education I received there was exemplary, and the grades were not inflated, at least not to the extent I've seen at American universities.

[kingbirdy]

This only seems fair if it's a purely optional course, or you're one option of many who don't implement the same policies. Otherwise, students are paying to be forced to teach their classmates in your class, when that's your job as the instructor.

[mod50ack]

Fundamental misunderstanding of how it works, I think. You're not paying for a transfer of information from professor to student. You need to engage with the material and make arguments. That's crucial in that field.

[asdff]

Speaking as a student who 'grew up' through these classes in highschool and college, I grew to detest them. Collaborative learning is great in a study session environment where everyone is a willing and eager participant by virtue of taking time to study at a certain time and place outside of class requirements.

Make class mandatory and even speaking in discussions mandatory, and you end up with a lot of disengaged and annoyed people reiterating the same points just to get the participation grade up. To me that isn't a quality discussion, and therefore a waste of my time and tuition. People rarely get to the meat of a concept in those discussions, if at all, without the teacher jumping in and spelling out the entire point. IMO, better to just lecture and spell out more points, and leave the discussions for the optional study or review sessions attended by the most motivated students.

[rubidium]

Totally makes sense. Seminar style classes should have attendance factored in, but not by “did you attend” but by “did you contribute to the converstion?”. (And you shouldn’t use an app to track them. )

[asdff]

These classes end up feeling unproductive for me. By mandating attendance and contribution, you end up getting the entire class raising their hand to reiterate the same point and get their participation mark for the day. People who are actually engaged with the material enough to formulate a new point are stifled. By the end of class only maybe 10% of the discussion ends up being worthy, the rest a waste by this middle school participation exercise that rewards noise and length equally to a well worded argument.

[rubidium]

I’m sorry to hear that, but that’s on your teacher. They should do a better job of facilitating.

A good seminar is 16 people (max, 12 is better). No hand raising needed. The goal is learning and understanding. Ideally there’s not any grades. If there are they should be opaque and subjective up to the instructor :)

[quantified]

Should the school nag or gameify their showing up, or should it be on the student to be responsible for their own self?