[has2k1]

It is possible to imagine a potential casual process that leads to earlier death. What if pessimism creates a constant presence of key stress hormones (Adrenaline, Cortisol and Norepinephrine) and these are already linked to higher likelihoods of heart disease, cancer, ...

[rzzzt]

What if the constant presence of stress hormones makes people more prone to pessimism?

[achenatx]

Anecdotally, Ive been very fortunate to have a positive brain chemistry. When bad things have happened, my brain pretty much doesn't worry on them. Eventually things work out (or something good eventually happens) and I get through the bad times.

There is no way to explain or describe this positive brain chemistry in a way that anyone can believe. But since I was a kid, my parents have been worried that Im too happy as they know dissatisfaction is what drives people to achieve. They would say things like "your only problem is you are too happy".

I havent lived to 85 yet though, so who knows.

[Gravityloss]

I do annoying things to avoid bad things from happening in the future. If one is very optimistic, then one would not believe the bad things would happen and thus one would not be very motivated to do the annoying things.

For example do you wear a seat belt or brush your teeth? I know the questions may sound a bit offensive but I'm honestly interested in hearing people's motivations.

[achenatx]

I do, because wearing a seatbelt is not that annoying. It just doesn't bother me. Being optimistic doesnt mean that I don't think bad things will happen to me, just that it will be ok, or not be ok. Either way there is always something positive to come out of every situation.

There are some paths that I would prefer, but even the bad paths have lots of positives.

During the 2010 recession we had a client that owed us 700K and I could tell from reading the 10Q was on the verge of bankruptcy. I had my team work very hard to collect our money. We got it and when they went bankrupt we survived while a lot of our peers went out of business. It isnt that I believed we would be ok, but that if we had not been able to collect the money and went out of business that would have been an incredible learning experience and something good would have come out of it.

Every outcome is not equally desired, I would rather be in business than not be in business. But not being in business, losing your home, becoming bankrupt etc. just doesnt stress me out. I have lived on 10K/year before and been incredibly happy. Even when I was digging change out of the couch to afford to buy food.

[Gravityloss]

Ok, thanks for answering!

I guess one could map it very crudely so that the pessimist sees the alternatives as A = -10 and B = -8 and the optimist sees them as A = +4 and B = +6. Both estimate pairs will lead to the same action but the latter person will have a more positive outlook.

[wozniacki]

Does it ever bother you when people find that youre "too happy" which people might take it to mean that no outcome to any given event, can really displease you?

Have you read up on what such a "condition" - if it can be called that - is called medically? Do others share it as well?

[mistermann]

One description of such a condition might be the notion of (or for your question, the state of) enlightenment.

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/cross-check/what-does-i...

Medicine and science, being subject to the limitations of a falsifiable-evidence style of thinking as well as technical limitations, are understandably way behind the curve in this sort of thing.

From the reading I've done, the underlying physiological explanation for "the enlightened state" seems to be downgraded activity in the Default Mode Network of the brain, and evidence suggests this can be achieved in a variety of ways.

Meditation - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4529365/

Prayer - https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.3109/00952990.2016.1...

Psychedelics - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5857492/

Stroke - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3688936/

Meditation, prayer, and psychedelics often seem to put the rationalist-oriented mind into a sort of defensive, hyper-skeptical mode, but that the same phenomenon can also be observed in stroke patients hopefully makes such minds more open to considering the idea.

[achenatx]

the way people see it is that I dont react to bad situations. I have been called "stone cold". I have sometimes wondered if it is related to sociopathy. I am a giving person and would rather give than receive, so am not very selfish. However, bad things just dont bother me because there is always something positive that comes out of everything.

When my wife had an aortic dissection and had a high chance of dying, people had a hard time understanding how I could be so calm and not be stressed. It wasnt that I was sure she was going to make it, just that no matter the outcome I would still find happiness.

[cmehdy]

Sincere question here: what makes you certain that you would have found happiness? I guess the fundamental difference between your way of thinking and most peoples' is that you seem to be absolutely convinced that happiness exists and is continuously experienced regardless of the state of reality. Therefore, regardless of what happens, there will be some form of happiness and you will experience it.

I'm in awe of this, because my personal view is that happiness is a fleeting chaotic state that mostly has no easily measurable probability of emerging, despite my attempts to grasp the shape of the distribution and its evolution in response to my actions. While I would consider myself not to be pessimistic, I definitely tend to have extremely rare encounters with what one would call happiness, which seems to be so starkly different from your life experience.

[throw_483044]

There's a book by Tony Hsieh (Zappos founder) called Delivering Happiness.

Near the end, he talks about three types of "happiness."

The first is pleasure. It's from food, fun, or other external experiences. While it can bring temporary happiness, you will always be looking for the next fix.

The second is happiness from passion, such as a hobby or working at your startup. You can go for years without success and still feel happy. However eventually you'll need some type of progress to keep going.

The third type is happiness from purpose. Think of it as working towards something bigger than yourself. This type of happiness can last a lifetime, even if all you do is sacrifice for it.

[achenatx]

happiness cant come from external factors. Happiness comes from within. I have come to believe that it has to be fortunate brain chemistry. Events dont make me happy, Im already happy and optimistic. Some events are easier to find the good in of course.

There is a downside which is that I dont get that happy over good events, I also dont get sad over bad events. I dont need anything to be happy so when good things happen, they are nice, but simply not necessary. Overall though I feel very fortunate, satisfied, optimistic, and happy with life.

[watwut]

You remind me preacher character from "Adam's Apples" movie.

[tomp]

So you’re saying that good brain chemistry causes optimism, low stress and longevity?

[AmericanChopper]

What if pessimists are less likely to engage in self-preserving or self-improving behaviour (because why bother), creating a self-sustaining negative feedback loop?

[rzzzt]

Yes.

[BurningFrog]

Not the optimistic angle we're trying to foster here!

[andy_ppp]

If you stress out mice even their grand children will also be stressed even if you remove any stressors from them? Essentially, this area of research is extremely complicated.

[JamesBarney]

Sure. But every single study like this goes to an RCT finds causation runs the other way.

[trevyn]

Or maybe it’s acausal — some fires burn brighter, but they know that they will die sooner.

[wozniacki]

I'm sure it would seem like there is a link between the two somewhere, even if it is very threadbare or even spurious for that matter.

More principally, these things just seem very believable because being optimistic is just a positive attribute that society rewards and approves of much more than it does pessimism (some would say being pessimistic is almost an universal negative, some outlier societies notwithstanding).

This imparts a definite bias in the believability of the study, no matter what the findings of the study actually are - even if the study were to only indicate a mild association between being optimistic and longevity.

Just consider the findings of a study from some years ago:

  "High social status has its privileges ­­when it comes to 
   aging – even in wild animals."

  ...

  “High-ranking members in hyena clans reproduce more, they
  live longer and appear to be in better overall health,” said
  Nora Lewin, MSU doctoral student of zoology and co-lead 
  author. “If you want to see the hierarchy of spotted hyenas, 
  throw down some fresh meat near them. It’s quickly apparent 
  who’s dominant and who’s not.”

  ...

  Lewin and her teammates focused on telomeres, caps at the end
  of each strand of DNA that protect chromosomes from 
  deterioration. These biomarkers are regarded as important signs
  of aging and stress in many species, including humans. Shrinking
  telomeres are a signal that cells are sliding into defensive 
  mode, stressful actions that could soon lead to cells’ – and 
  to the organism’s – death.

  “This work shows, for the first time, the effects of social 
   rank on telomere length in wild mammals,” Lewin said. “This enhances 
   our understanding of how social and ecological variables may 
   contribute to age-related declines of hyenas, and in organisms
   in general.”[1]

High social status humans live longer lives is the natural assumption here even if the suggestion is only mild.

Such stuff seems more believable due to a chain of assumptions about - low status mammals, stress levels, food security, likelihood of physical harm etc.

Its safe to assume those, it would seem - however light the actual evidence for it.

There are scores of studies like this with very light suggestive conclusions yet the believability is high.

I just wish these things are fleshed out with a lot more rigor and thoroughness by the science journalists or journalists at large. This isn't trivial, easily ignored stuff. These things have real world consequences if true.

Very palpable, sizable and profound consequences on people's lives.

[1]

Social Status Has Impact On Overall Health of Mammals

https://msutoday.msu.edu/news/2015/social-status-has-impact-...

[has2k1]

Thanks for the excerpt of the study, it is interesting. As persistent stress causes visible signs of aging, for example the seemingly accelerated growth of gray hair and wrinkles of U.S presidents, it is not big a leap to suspect more.