[bayesian_horse]

Hm, I'd say the Pimsleur method is quite good at teaching every-day language. Which is a worthwhile task, but the range of words is quite limited.

I would suspect that in order to get up to HSK4 or even HSK5, just the audio portions of course, you'd need like double or triple the amount of lessons, which would be impractical.

Of course, most people will start speakind and listening, in various forms, in phase 1 and 2. And that is actually necessary. But I think you won't be able to really grok "random" speech before having a good grasp at pretty much all the vocabulary you would encounter.

[DiogenesKynikos]

The range of words you learn with Pimsleur is limited because the method makes sure you actually retain every word it tries to teach you. Having a solid grasp of a small vocabulary (a few hundred words) is an excellent way to start off with a language.

> But I think you won't be able to really grok "random" speech before having a good grasp at pretty much all the vocabulary you would encounter.

But you will be able to grok small conversations about subjects you're familiar with. You can expand from there. When you try to learn a new language, you should be speaking from day one, no matter how limited the range of subjects you can speak about.

[bayesian_horse]

Yes, which is why I say the phases overlap. I still think theory should dominate the first phase of learning a language, followed by mostly reading.

[DiogenesKynikos]

Having learned a few languages with different methodologies, I strongly disagree. The most effective introductory method I've encountered so far is Pimsleur, because of its focus on listening and speaking at the early stages.

I've seen too many students who learn using the traditional theory-heavy approach and who, after years of study, are like deer caught in the headlights when they're confronted with the actual spoken language. They're also often saddled with poor pronunciation forever (which really degrades native speakers' perception of your language proficiency, regardless of how fluent you are).

Some theory is helpful, particularly for languages with lots of grammar (i.e., Indo-European languages with case, gender, agreement, etc.), but like playing an instrument, learning a language is 90% practice.

[thaumasiotes]

> I would suspect that in order to get up to HSK4 or even HSK5, just the audio portions of course, you'd need like double or triple the amount of lessons, which would be impractical.

I have passed HSK4.

I am not competent in Mandarin listening comprehension, or in speaking (to be fair, speaking isn't a part of the test). Those skills aren't necessary to pass. The audio samples for HSK4 are a lot more generous with you than actual speech is.

[bayesian_horse]

I meant more like "HSK-4 vocabulary without characters".

[faitswulff]

I would agree that Pimsleur lessons won't take you to HSK4/5, but they are a great way to get into the language first without all the more academic studies upfront.