[ajays]

Not necessarily. It is possible that Google incorporates clickstream data too.

The problem that Google's little experiment highlighted was: given the utter lack of any other signal, Bing uses the fact that that URL was ranked #1 by Google's search engine and clicked on by a user.

Having said that: had I been doing this experiment at Google, I would have also added the following variations:

- for some search terms, rank the honeypot URL #1 but don't click on it

- for some search terms, rank the honeypot URL #1 on some _other_ search engine's list and click on it. How can they do that? There are search engines out there which use Google in the backend.

Experiment #1 would have shown more blatant copying. Experiment #2 would have shown whether it's just Google, or any other search engine.

[mukyu]

Google has said they do not use clickstream data for ranking from Google toolbar.

They did have variations of their tests. Cutts mentioned this during the bigthink panel. Sometimes they went to Bing first or not, sometimes they clicked on the links and sometimes not, and various other things.

[gojomo]

Google has said they do not use clickstream data for ranking from Google toolbar.

Please provide a reference. I've been looking for this statement and haven't found it. When Googlers are directly asked, they pointedly don't answer or say they don't know.

Amit Singhal's statement was carefully worded to be ambiguous on this matter, and Google has apparently confirmed that page-load-time data (at the very least) from the Toolbar does affect rankings.

Such use by search is definitely allowed by Google's written privacy policy. The confirm dialog a user passes when installing the Toolbar refers to that privacy policy.

It'd be very easy for an official Google spokesperson to say clearly that Toolbar data doesn't drive search rankings, if that were true. That they haven't strongly suggests it is used.

Search expert Danny Sullivan made the same observation in his 'Bing: Why Google’s Wrong In Its Accusations' article:

As For The Google Toolbar

Meanwhile, I’m on my third day of waiting to hear back from Google about just what exactly it does with its own toolbar. Now that the company has fired off accusations against Bing about data collection, Google loses the right to stay as tight-lipped as it has been in the past about how the toolbar may be used in search results.

Google’s initial denial that it has never used toolbar data “to put any results on Google’s results pages” immediately took a blow given that site speed measurements done by the toolbar DO play a role in this. So what else might the toolbar do?

http://searchengineland.com/bing-why-googles-wrong-in-its-ac...

[mukyu]

You are being disingenuous. That you cannot find them explicitly denying something does not therefore make it true nor provide any evidence that it is true.

“Absolutely not. The PageRank feature sends back URLs, but we’ve never used those URLs or data to put any results on Google’s results page. We do not do that, and we will not do that,” said Singhal.

http://www.toprankblog.com/2006/04/matt-cutts-on-toolbar-dat...

In this one, Matt Cutts all but explicitly says that they do not use it.

[gojomo]

"Put any results" is vague, perhaps intentionally finessed, language – as I (and the Sullivan quote) already highlighted in the grandparent comment. It could mean, especially in the context of the Bing allegations, that Google Toolbar data never adds a new URL to the index or a result-set, but is still used for relative ranking of already-known URLs.

In the link you provide, Matt Cutts says: "I’m not going to say definitively that Google doesn’t/won’t use toolbar data (or other signals) in ranking." And: "I’m not going to say whether Google uses a particular signal in our ranking." Cutts simply says Toolbar data could be problematic because it could be gamed. Well, links can too – didn't stop Google from building its empire on that impure signal. This seems to me more of the same finesse that creates the impression of a denial without a denial.

Further, it's clear from previous Google statements that page-load-timing from the Toolbar is used to affect rankings. That alone invalidates the 'strong' interpretation of Amit Singhal's statement. So Singhal means something other than "Toolbar data never effects search rankings". What does he mean? Just requoting that vague statement doesn't clear anything up.

And since everything Google does with this data is a closely-guarded secret, how can we be sure of anything, short of awaiting (and then trusting) definitive Google statements? And I can't yet find any clear statement about Toolbar data usage – even though lots of people seem to think they have seen them. (I think general warm feelings towards Google are creating this mistaken impression.)

I don't expect a clear statement; I believe Toolbar clicktrails are a big part of Google' secret sauce. But it means Google could be using equivalent techniques to Bing's, and simply have better filters against the blatant dominance of a single website or only 20 clickers on any result sets.

[mukyu]

I do not think it would matter if Sergey and Page personally delivered a stone slab engraved with a statement that Google does not use their toolbar's clicks. As you say, you would have to rely on trusting their statements. You seem to require extraordinary evidence that they do not and have no evidence to back up that they actually do use it, and yet cling to belief that they do.

Matt spent 5 paragraphs on the subject, and yet you have laser focus on one statement that is not even contradicted by other evidence and try to derive whatever you want from it.

Here are some other comments from the panel at bigthink, but I'm sure you will find enough wiggle in them to assert that Google faked the moon landing.

Matt Cutts: "I'm not sure that users realize...when they search on Google and click... those results appear--those clicks appear to be encrypted and sent to Microsoft which then appear to be used in Google's [sic] rankings?"

[stuff about EULAs]

Harry Shum: "Everyone does this Matt you know.."

Matt: "Google... I want to categorically deny that Google does this."

Harry: "That Google does what?"

Matt: "We don't use clicks on Bing's users in Google's rankings."

http://bigthink.com/series/62#!selected_item=4845 around 25:00