[bzbarsky]

Yes, but 3D transform is still a proprietary webkit feature, which was badmonkey0001's point.

The fact that they wrote up half-assed incomplete documentation of it and submitted it to the W3C for consideration as a standard doesn't change that. It's actually more or less like OOXML except it hasn't had the feedback-and-rubberstamp process happen yet. With any luck, that process won't happen, in fact (in that there will be actual discussion and actual specification, not rubberstamping).

Now if the CSS working group actually starts actively working on 3D transforms (hasn't happened yet) and anyone other than Webkit actually implements them, then we can talk about them being something other than what they are now.

There _is_ a bit of confusion here because vendor prefixes are used for both experimental implementations of CSS working group proposals and totally random proprietary gunk. The problem is telling the two apart... ;)

[badmonkey0001]

Thank you for being the one person here that seems to consider point of view without the fanboy-ism. What people are calling "HTML5" and "CSS3" is really getting nebulous. It's almost as if just mentioning something shiny and new somehow makes it part of the spec.

I do think prefixes are better than hacks, but to call a prefixed single-browser feature "CSS3" or "HTML5" kind of blows my mind... no matter how unpopular that view may be here on HN.

"The word heretic ought to be a term of honour..." -Charles Bradlaugh

[ugh]

Browsers sometimes charge ahead. I woul them rather to do that with prefixes than without. I don't think that's in any way comparable to Microsoft's behavior.

[bzbarsky]

Charging ahead with prefixes is sure better than without.

Doing that and encouraging web authors to create public-facing sites that depend on the prefixes to work correctly (which is what Apple has been doing) is no different from Microsoft's behavior around 2001, imo.

[ugh]

Well, Apple is doing all kinds of weird stuff and Apple is also not Webkit.

I think that 3D transforms in CSS are inevitable, there is consequently nothing wrong with browsers testing the waters. Implementation and standards always had an organic relationship, sometimes the standards are ahead and sometimes the implementations. I think that’s how it should work, I think that strengthens and accelerates the process. The standards frontier of the web will always be messy and I am honestly happy that standards bodies are finally willing to embrace that messiness.

Apple encouraging the use of CSS properties with prefixes, even if they are brand new and there are no implementations in other browsers or even plans is a different issue. Luckily nobody listens to Apple when looking for advice regarding web development ;-)

I personally think that you shouldn’t use 3D transforms at the moment for anything you intend to be used. Neat demos are ok.