[e40]

I feel like men need to hear stuff like this, just like white people need to hear what black people go through.

On the latter, I keep having the thought that in 2019, that comment should not be needed. I feel the same about your comment and how men act.

(I say all this as a older white man.)

[zozbot234]

Fine with that, as long as the "hear about it" part doesn't involve stereotyping all men (and specifically men) as potential predators.[1] Because that sort of misdirected moral panic can only make things even worse.

[1] (See also: "teach them not to rape!" and the like. You can't teach a rapist not to rape - the leopard doesn't change its spots. And the moral majority of dutiful, ethical, law-abiding folks don't need to be taught not to be predators!)

[pjc50]

> And the moral majority of dutiful, ethical, law-abiding folks don't need to be taught not to be predators!

The whole discussion around "rape culture" suggests that a lot of people need to be taught where the boundary is. They don't do it "deliberately" but declare that anything other than a clear repeated "no" counts as consent, which is not right.

[zozbot234]

No, the actual issue with so-called "rape culture" is the way it enables predators by providing them with cover, plausible deniability, social support etc. etc. That's why male-hierarchical and supremacist societies like we see in many places outside the West are a huge problem. (And they hurt males also, since sexual predation often targets them too - much like we'd see in the stereotypes about prison rape in the U.S. It's not homosexuality in the modern Western sense but sexually predatory behavior that's masking as homosexuality. The underlying dynamics are exactly the same as when females are targeted.)

[vsadu]

Yeah, maybe. But I'm sure everybody who's not a crazy fuck knows that catcalling a 6 year old is way beyond the boundary.

[krapp]

>The whole discussion around "rape culture" suggests that a lot of people need to be taught where the boundary is.

They're taught by popular culture and outdated notions of masculine identity that the boundaries don't really exist, or that they're just an obstacle to be overcome. Plenty of popular songs teach men that women should consent to sex if a man is aggressive enough or rich enough, or handsome or gets a woman drunk, etc.

Rape culture sends men the message that consent is defined by what they want, and that they're entitled to sex, and that there's something wrong with women who don't give it to them (and, conversely, something wrong with men who can't get it at every opportunity.)

[longtom]

Historically, the problem was solved by not allowing women in public at all. In nearly all higher cultures, women lived in completely segregated and controlled world. Let's not forget that what is novel is not that a tiny minority of men are sex-obsessed low-inhibition asshats, but what is novel is that women casually sit in the bus right next to them. By this, of course, I do not intend to downplay the severity of some experiences some women make.

[zozbot234]

We already have things like segregated, female-only rail cars in Japan. So I'd argue we're slowly going back to that world. Somehow, we'll also develop new "non-predatory", "consent-respecting" sexual scripts that will most likely look a heck of a lot like the old-fashioned rules of public etiquette and courtesy.

[Ewigkeit]

My parents were mostly absent, hence why I was 15 taking a bus to work so I could afford basic goods. If they were willing to care for me, I would have had way fewer encounters with men harassing me. People who never step out of the bubble have no idea.

[pergadad]

Nonsense. In the upper crust maybe, but in tribes and farming cultures women were.alwqys full part of public society. It changed only with the industrial revolution - smaller families, bigger cities, more distinct gender roles.

[longtom]

No, gender segregated work was pretty common throughout human history: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/1069397106297529

[pjc50]

I'm not sure where you're going with this argument? It's not even all that true outside of the most patriachal communities of the Yawhistic religions.

[steakknife]

I believe the word you are looking for is _Abrahamic_.

[specialist]

It's not about you.

Oversteer is inevitable. You'll somehow manage. Just like women somehow manage to power thru constant harassment.