[ComputerGuru]

I’m always confused when someone parks my car and I find they parked it in first rather than neutral plus the handbrake (High gradients excepted, where both should be used regardless of preference). People that learn it one way will never do it the other.

(Also, yes, the 2002 IS300 was available in stick.)

[TeMPOraL]

AFAIK in Poland, it's common knowledge among experienced drivers you should park on gear in lieu of handbrake in winter and/or a wet weather, especially if you plan to keep the car parked for more than a couple of hours.

We didn't know it until recently, which is how we ended up with blocked rear wheels after the car stayed parked for a couple of days, one of which was rainy. The process of unlocking the wheels damaged the brakes, so we also ended up with two visits to repair shop (one to hot-fix them before a trip home, another to fix them properly).

[spongeb00b]

I left my first car parked on my sloped drive for 2 weeks while on holiday. When trying to drive it for the first time I found the handbrake seized on. My dad was all “give it more gas” to try and free it while reversing down the drive. Suddenly there was a bang and jolt and the sound of escaping air. The front spring had been pulled until snapped and punctured the tyre...

[salawat]

Out of curiosity; why force it if you suspect it of being frozen on? I'd get an extension cord and a hair dryer/heat gun and warm the brake cable/linkages and rear brake assembly. You'd just have to get it warm enough to get an ice fracture started, then the force of actuating the brake should do the rest if it's an old fashioned one.

Just be careful, and make sure your electrical cord is in good condition, and you should be fine. Bonus points in that you get an excuse to nab the Mrs./Ms. hair dryer for a good laugh when someone inevitably sees you giving your car a good blow down.

I'd be incredibly leery of trying to force anything through engine output/mechanical vibration alone. Always try undoing the environmental complication first. It's much less prone to causing costly repairs, and easier to do than it seems. A car cover that goes to the ground, and a beefy enough space heater underneath the cover in the morning might do the trick too. Although winds can make the heat gun/hair dryer + point heating work better.

Brake fluid doesn't freeze, but any water it manages to have pulled out of the air will. In fact if you have too much water in your brake lines from moisture absorption from the atmosphere because you were fiddling with the master cylinder, or using fluid that had a chance to absorb significant moisture, you could get large enough concentrations of water to get some crystallization started. Normally though, hydraulic brake systems in good condition shouldn't have a problem with that. In the unlikely event you do, the amount of ice shouldn't threaten the physical integrity of the system, and warming the brake lines would resolve it. Note that having enough water for that to happen gas probably made your braking sponge though, and you should really flush your brakes at that point when you get a good dry day.

[spongeb00b]

The problem wasn’t cold weather, this was the middle of summer!

They were just stuck on too hard. At that age I didn’t know any better, and my dad who was the one encouraging me to gun it was never that mechanically minded.

Over 10 years later I now do all maintenance and servicing on my cars myself, so yeah if it happened again I would not have been doing that!

[TeMPOraL]

In that situation I mentioned, our uncle (an experienced driver) helped us unlock the wheels by essentially making the car rock back and forth. Standing outside, I was horrified - I didn't even realize the suspension system has such a large range of motion, and I'm pretty sure that if I tried to reproduce it on a toy car, I'd break it into pieces. But after few minutes of this dance, with two loud bangs, the brake disks let go and the stuck wheels started to rotate.

We drove the car straight to the mechanic after that.

[mdavidn]

Yes, that's true of automatics as well. If you suspect the brake shoe or cabling could get wet and freeze, you should avoid leaving the handbrake engaged.

[squiggleblaz]

Oh, so it's not "brake and in gear", but "in gear only"?

[TeMPOraL]

Yes, at least in the manual case I described above. The issue is that the braking mechanism itself will get stuck if it's left engaged and then gets wet.

[onefuncman]

I thought this was prevented by brake fluid being hygroscopic?

[blattimwind]

Classic handbrakes use a braking wire and don't use the hydraulic breaking system (so it's somewhat redundant, actually). Also, the brake fluid is inside the system and can't prevent the brake cylinder or the brake pads from seizing.

[AstralStorm]

The difference is the handbrake will seize off rather than braking, which means the car is usable or at least easier to haul.

[climb_stealth]

I have been taught to park cars in first gear and pull the handbrake as well. And along the same line to always check that the car is in neutral before starting it.

Maybe it is not current anymore, but I have always been instilled a certain distrust of handbrakes. :)

[scoofy]

Handbrake first, let car rest, then set in first gear. If you do it the other way around, you're resting the gears under load.

[adrianN]

Why is that bad? The gears surely take orders of magnitude more load in a moving car.

[newnewpdro]

The real problem is you're not loading (and testing) the brake before putting the engine in gear.

An off engine is not unable to turn. Its resistance to turning is not constant either. All piston rings leak, even when new. So while you may have observed the engine in first gear holding the vehicle, minutes later the leaking piston rings may have allowed the crank to turn, and vehicle to roll.

The primary holding mechanism should always be the brake, and you need to load it to verify it's functioning and that you've pulled hard enough on the parking brake.

Putting it in gear is just a weak and largely ineffective form of redundancy.

Chocking turned wheels against the curb is much better redundancy (and legally required when parking on hills around here).

[lopmotr]

Though the engine won't stop it rolling away on a steep hill, it will keep the speed down instead of wildly accelerating. So that can reduce the danger and destruction it causes.

[asdff]

Once you are off the slope it will stop the car as well

[eecc]

Very well summarized

[pfranz]

I always imagined it was a sustained load on a few teeth of the gear instead of constantly distributed as the gears turn.

[newnewpdro]

There's basically no compression when an engine isn't running at least at hundreds of RPMs.

It's a non-issue for the gears. You can turn a 4-cylinder crank with your bare hands. There's very little load, you're just overcoming the static friction of bearings, piston rings, and compressing valve springs. At the static to creeping rate we're talking, the cylinder fluids leak right through the piston ring gaps.

If you want to worry about something with regard to statically loading everything, it's a lack of lubrication that should worry you.

The engine isn't maintaining oil pressure when stopped. So you're leaving the crank bearings loaded in one spot while oil slowly squeezes out. "Frictionless" oil film bearings are made of relatively soft metals, so this isn't exactly good for the engine.

Also the gearbox isn't dispersing oil as it does when driving. So the gears are slowly drying up while loaded. I'd be more concerned about the engine bearings though.

I never leave my manual vehicles loaded in gear when off. It's pointlessly hard on the bearings. Starting is already harsh enough in that brief moment before oil pressure builds. Why add insult to injury?

There are oil pressure accumulators on the market in part for maintaining oil pressure when off for friendlier starting of high compression race engines:

https://www.cantonracingproducts.com/accusump

[AndrewThrowaway]

I wonder what would be the load compared to a speeding car. Lets say car is standing on 10% incline, first gear, something like three teeth engaged. What is the load to one teeth? Now lets say you have started the car and accelerate it to something like 30km/h in this incline before changing to second gear. What was the load to one tooth in the time of acceleration?

[asdff]

I don't think that's a huge concern. Gear teeth take a ton of abuse from imperfect shifting. I've parked like that for 10 years in a car and first has felt the same as it always has.

[epanchin]

In the UK where stick is normal, we’re taught to park in gear + handbrake.

The handbrake can start slipping when the brakes cool and the car could roll, so both are necessary, especially on a hill.

[StrangeSound]

Anecdotally [UK], I can't say that I nor anyone that I've noticed ever park in gear. With parking on hills being the only exception.

[zelos]

My UK driving instructor told me I should park with the car in reverse gear if you're pointing down a hill. I was never quite sure of the logic behind that.

[wccrawford]

Someone above was worried about "running the engine in reverse" when using reverse gear, so I'm guessing the idea is to match the direction the car will roll if something happens.

[gerdesj]

Anecdotally (UK), I do sometimes park in gear as well as the hand brake and I know others. I evaluate the situation first and use the appropriate combination. It may sound a bit excessive but a mental risk assessment takes seconds.

[LatteLazy]

I wasn't (test passed in 2009 I think). And that was in Exeter (very hilly area). Only if it's very steep were we told we could do that...

[reallydontask]

Same advice given to me in Spain (circa 2001)

[_ZeD_]

same in italy.

[martin_bech]

Also chiming in from Denmark, thats how you park a stick. Engine off, set it in 1st gear, and pull the handbrake.

[varjag]

Because that's how you are supposed to do it. Parking in either handbrake or in gear alone is not reliable.

[ComputerGuru]

They’re both reliable, the odds of either mechanism failing with the car at rest are slim. What’s not reliable is remembering to do it and making sure you did it right; doing both helps with that.

[pfranz]

I've had the car roll when I thought the handbrake was engaged. The pull-levers aren't binary, so sometimes people don't pull them enough (I sometimes get others complaining I pulled it too far and it's difficult for them to release). Other times they seem to get warn down...I've caught people driving with them still engaged.

[pertymcpert]

No, not non-existent. The handbrake can and do fail over time.

[asdff]

Handbrakes are generally shit. If you ever have a used car you will notice that the engagement point gets higher and higher for the hand brake. I've had to adjust my handbrake cable to get the engagement point back to a reasonable level, as it was hitting the arm rest and still not holding the car.

If you've ever changed tires on a fwd car and kept it in gear, you will notice you can torque the front tires far harder than the rear, as the front will be held by the engine and the rear wheels can spin surprisingly easily by your own power even when held by the hand brake.

[PinguTS]

That is not true. There are situations where one or the other could fail, especially on a hill. A car in gear can be moved. That is a way how I start an engine for example.

Also depending on weather and temperature the handbrake can fail.

[ComputerGuru]

> That is a way how I start an engine for example.

I’ve never seen anyone successfully start an engine from stand-still with it in gear (though I’ve seen people try). You get it rolling in neutral and only then engage the gear to start the engine without a starter or battery.

[varjag]

If you park your car in a gear on a steep hill in wrong direction (e.g. into first with the front inclined down), it will roll.

And parking brakes by themselves are some of the most fail prone systems in the cars.

[inferiorhuman]

They’re both reliable, the odds of either mechanism failing with the car at rest are slim. What’s not reliable is remembering to do it and making sure you did it right; doing both helps with that.

Your engine will lose compression over time so it's plausible that it'll roll a bit without the brake engaged.

[gambiting]

Wait, what? I come from a country where 99% of cars are manual, and you are taught to always park in both first gear and put the handbrake on. One of these can fail independently of the other and the car still won't roll if you do that.

[Unklejoe]

My 2002 Maxima (manual) used the rear disk brake as the e-brake (unlike most other cars that have a separate drum e-brake). The issue there is that as the car cooled off, the disk contracted and the e-brake would lose grip.

Learned the hard way when I saw my car in the middle of the street one day. Left it in gear every time after that.

[macrolime]

Handbrake can freeze and get stuck in the winter. Unless it's very cold it's best to use first and hand brake as each may fail by themselves leaving the car rolling.I once put on the hand brake and neutral and when I came out of the shop my car had crashed into another car as the hand brake had gotten broken. Now I always use first plus handbrake.

[semi-extrinsic]

In my experience, at least manual handbrakes tend to freeze in the "brake engaged" position. If it's frozen in the "brake disengaged" position, you won't be able to turn it on, and you definitely notice it (the lever won't budge then).

Not sure how this applies to electric hand brakes, but I would hope they have a sensor to detect if the motor has engaged the brake or if it's just stalled out.

[mikestew]

So, you only have single point of failure (parking brake) holding your car back from rolling down the road? No, leave it in gear when you park. I mean, why wouldn't you leave it in gear? If you think you're saving wear on something, you're probably wrong.

[michaelscott]

The assumption is that the handbrake could snap and if the car is on any sort of incline being in first gear will prevent it from sliding. If it wouldn't slide without a handbrake then you don't need to use it in the first place.

[perl4ever]

I took for granted that the right way is in first and with the handbrake on, because with a typical FWD car, I believe the handbrake stops the rear wheels and the engine's inertia stops the front wheels.

[asdff]

In gear is fine. The engine wouldn't be able to turn over. You'd need a serious hill, like 45*, to have a car bump start without gaining speed in neutral first.

[mikestew]

Depends on the car. Our '81 VW camper is loosy-goosy enough that without the parking brake it will creep its way down our angled-but-not-anywhere-near-45-degrees driveway. On any kind of an incline, I don't trust the compression leakage on even a new car. But that's for manuals that rely on engine compression to to hold them in place. Automatics (at least the ones I've torn apart) have a pin to lock the transmission, and not rely on rolling up against engine compression.

[yvrev]

Extra safety + in winter handbrake can freeze stuck

[leeoniya]

i prefer to leave it in gear rather than hand brake (unless on grade) to avoid the handbrake becoming less effective over time as the cable stretches.

this happened in my 2005 mazda 3 and the habit carried over to my 2017 Golf (not sure if the brake design is similar or not, maybe it's not necessary on the vw)

[ptaipale]

That's generally not a good idea. Cable stretch is not a problem, it can be adjusted (and generally modern cars often have a self-adjust system for handbrake cable, even for manual handbrakes).

Handbrake should be used to keep it effective (so that the cable moves regularly and does not get stuck). And, if the gear is released accidentally, you still have the brake, and vice versa.

(Myself, I have always parked with handbrake on + gear in 1st or reverse; nowadays with my VW it's pretty automatic because it's DSG and you have to put the selector to P to take the key out, and electric parking brake activates automatically.)

[leeoniya]

actually my Alltrack has EPB so i dont think there's a cable (or any mechanical linkage) from the brake lever to the caliper. sounds like it's all electronic -> hydraulic. in that case i should probably use it more.

[bArray]

> i prefer to leave it in gear rather than hand brake

> (unless on grade) to avoid the handbrake becoming less

> effective over time as the cable stretches.

Your justification for not using the handbrake for its intended purpose it that it may become less effective in the future? Seems counter intuitive unless I'm missing something...

If you believe your handbrake cable will stretch/break, just check it regularly. It really isn't that expensive to replace (compared to other car maintenance) and there's no harm in being extra cautious in this case.

[asdff]

The handbrake isn't only for parking. It's also useful on hills when you would roll backwards from a stop.

[leeoniya]

well the idea is that when you're parked, there's no emergency. but if you need it during an actual emergency and it's less effective than it should be...

[AstralStorm]

In an emergency, the handbrake is very unlikely to help. It is likely to put you in a slip. Especially in a car with ABS and traction control, where normal brakes are far more effective.

The only emergency it is useful for is when you really have to pull a 180 right now and tight, as the automated systems do not expect this situation and will relax the brakes while you're deliberately trying to spin. I wouldn't trust even an above average drive with pulling that off - it's not being practiced. Usually it would be a desperation move when there's no space and a head on collision is likely.

[ashildr]

it‘s a handbrake, not an emergency brake.

[clarry]

I'm feeling conflicted because my driving instructor said that you could and maybe should use handbrake for additional barking power in an emergency, but car's manual says that it shouldn't be used and may be damaged if used while the car is moving..

[asdff]

Do not use the handbrake for emergencies. You don't have antilock brakes with the handbrake and it will probably throw you into an uncontrollable skid rather than slow you down.

[frosted-flakes]

How would it be damaged if used while the car is moving? It's just a cable that activates the rear brake caliper independently of the hydraulics.

[usrusr]

I do the same, except for me the reason is to never forget an improperly set hand brake, as the engine can easily overpower the brake and when you do notice or can be too late for a variety of parts. It's either first or neutral (as a reminder of the brake) plus tightly slammed hand brake when at grade.

[babayega2]

It's a recipe for disaster. You prefer convenience over safety? You better put it in gear and then handbrake. One day my car was in only gear, neutral and a kid made it roll few feets by just playing inside the car. I'm afraid as hell since then.

[ComputerGuru]

> was in only gear, neutral

So was it in gear or was it in neutral?

[leeoniya]

sounds like the kid popped it out of gear?

[asdff]

Did the kid reach into the car and move the stick past the gate? Otherwise I'm not sure how you can pop a car out of gear.