[afiori]

soulofmischief wished no kind of hardship, he is preaching an idea of taking responsibility for improving your life. I personally have not read any moral judgment in his comments; just a simple fact that, in many cases, if you want to improve your life you need to do it yourself.

This together with a conjecture that in most cases the average person has indeed the possibility of upward mobility. A conjecture that was posed with an invite to hear opposing view.

A discussion of how much we should expect help from outside is important (and I believe soulofmischief would agree), but it is not relevant to how to improve your own life in the situation that help does not exist yet.

Personally I think we should separate the morality issue of being poor/rich from the mechanics of how people become/remain poor.

[cixter]

No moral judgement? He's literally stating that he thinks people who can't get out of poverty within 10-20 years are not worth his empathy. It's clear as day that he considers her to a large degree responsible for her situation.

The anectotal example he is asking for is in the very article we're discussing. Not that she has made no mistakes, but that (as has been stated several times in these comments) such mistakes are extremely punishing when you are this poor.

As for the discussion on societal help, I think it's very relevant, because the very definition of working yourself up from poverty means climbing the societal ladder. As such, the society you're in is intrinsic to improving your situation. It's a fallacy to say that you are completely in control of your own destiny and luck - the society around you is always helping and/or harming your efforts.

Every person has an obligation to themselves to improve their life as best they can, but a society that ensures basic needs are met is the best springboard for being able to do so.

[soulofmischief]

Actually, no, that's not what I said. I said that sometimes I have trouble empathizing with reasonably intelligent individuals who have not made a meaningful change to their prospects after 20 years, and I made a post requesting different points of view.

The truth is that you're being way overcritical. Nothing about my post is clear as day, the only comments I made regarding Ms. Brown were in the form of questions. Are you going to help answer those questions or just light me up with your virtue signalling?

[cixter]

You're right, I did extrapolate your statement - sorry about that.

It's clear we're approaching this issue from completely different fundamental positions. To me, your question is uninteresting because my underlying belief is that all human beings that live in a society deserve a life where they don't have to worry about fundamental needs, such as food, shelter and hygiene.

I think everyone should receive enough money from their jobs to afford decent, nutritional food, a small apartment, and hygiene articles. Even if they are hard-working or complacent, stupid or intelligent.

[soulofmischief]

In an ideal world, we would all be on UBI. But we aren't, and so we have the duty to ourselves, each other, and our posterity to do everything we can to reverse the authoritarian plague ripping through this planet.

We have to learn how we can take personal agency despite hardships, and instill this agency in others, so that we can stand our ground and ensure a better economic outcome for our children.

[soulofmischief]

Thank you for your comment. This is the discussion I wish to have.

I can say that one thing which did help me was that even though I grew up impoverished, I still had a few middle-class friends whose relative wealth "rubbed off on me", if you will. And I had a handful of teachers whose participation extended past the obligations of their jobs and who were ready to write letters of recommendations at a moment's notice to any institution and give me space to learn in my own way.

But these bonds were formed with the express intention of networking and while I am thankful for the help I've received from these people, I also recognize that I would have not received this help if I were generally a dick to people around me and didn't seek out friendships with useful people.

If we can discuss these kinds of things and reach a general consensus on what the obstacles are and how to overcome them, this information could be critical to others in their struggle. What information is Ms. Brown missing?