Hacker News new | ask | show | jobs
by Sohcahtoa82 2390 days ago
> Ideally everyone's income should be derived from the value they generate.

Define "value". Or more specifically, how do you measure "value" for jobs that don't directly generate revenue?

How much value does the janitorial staff create?

How much value does your IT team create?

What's the dollar value of your cybersecurity team?

What about HR?

None of these teams directly create revenue for the company, but certainly they created value. Meanwhile, Amazon has workers that pack boxes. They are directly contributing to revenue by doing the actual work that is core to the business. If cybersecurity, HR, the janitors, or IT were to disappear for a week, theoretically packages would still get sent to customers and Amazon still makes money.

And yet they're having to fight for fair wages? They're the most valuable labor in the company!

The idea that income should be derived from value is incredibly naive. As I mentioned in another comment, that mentality is what leads to managers laying off the entire IT team because they're seen as a money sink.

2 comments

> The idea that income should be derived from value is incredibly naive.

On what other basis do you propose it be derived?

Non-revenue generating roles provide value by allowing the revenue-generating roles to generate revenue. This is the basic concept of specialization. You could likely even take a stab at quantifying this: time spent freeing up revenue-generating roles to generate revenue combined with some kind of supply-and-demand factor.

For example, if I'm a one-man widget shop, hiring a janitor to sweep the floors for me means I can spend that time generating more widgets instead of sweeping floors. The value provided by that janitor is proportional to the additional revenue I generated from those extra widgets, scaled by the large supply of janitors in the labor market.

The idea that income should be derived from value is only naive if you take a fixed view of "value == revenue". No doubt some middle managers have this view, but that's a sign of ignorance and incompetence, not a flaw in the underlying theory itself.

>How much value does the janitorial staff create?

When the company hires them, the company has decided that the company obtains enough value for the transaction. So does the janitorial staff.

>And yet they're having to fight for fair wages? They're the most valuable labor in the company!

Not if someone else is willing to do the job for the same pay - this is market clearing. They're paid what it takes to fill the position, and they show up for that wage. Both sides benefit, otherwise the side without getting benefit would not show up.

So then we are in agreement that wages are not a function of value created by the worker. They pay only what it takes to get the position filled, which is a completely unrelated number to value.
>So then we are in agreement that wages are not a function of value created by the worker.

Wages are a function of value created. As a trivial example, wages are capped by total cost to employ, which is driven by wages and legal requirements. There is no way around this on a large scale without a business losing money, i.e., dying.

>which is a completely unrelated number to value

No, this is untrue. Marx had the same thought, but didn't understand that employers also compete for workers, which is why the poorest workers are vastly richer than Marx could have understood.

A simple way you can check it empirically is to take a dataset of companies, compute mean revenue per employee, and correlate to mean wage by company. You'll certainly find that these numbers are completely related.

You can do the same thing using work sectors using BLS data on pay by job type, then revenue generated in those jobs. Again, you'll find a strong correlation between revenue generated per employee and per employee wages.

These empirical tests you can do yourself should convince you wages are tied to value added.

If you then do proper factor analysis to account for other costs varying between companies, such as cost for materials or equipment, the correlation between wages and value becomes stronger.

Edit: here's a dataset to get you started [1]. 1000 companies with # of employees and median wage. Find revenue per company and you're all set to do an initial analysis.

[1] https://www.wsj.com/graphics/how-does-your-pay-stack-up/