[ergo98]

>The telecommunications situation in Canada is terrible.

Your complaint is that some rural area has poor service. Is that not the case around the globe?

I've had high-speed cable service since long before it was available in most urban centers in the US (much less the rest of the world), including when I lived in a mid-sized town. Here in a suburb of Toronto I've had top-notch, leading-the-bandwidth (15Mbps around the clock) high speed for a low cost for almost a decade.

I think our situation is quite good, actually. Broadband penetration is very high, average caps are competitive with the world, and bandwidth numbers lean very high on the curve.

There is so much misinformation about this whole situation (not helped by people making "incremental cost" calculations that assume that the infrastructure for infinite bandwidth is already in place): The best is the other post where someone talks about it being Soviet-style central control. The humorous aspect is that CRTC is essentially unwinding that central control, put in place back when Bell was the big, untouchable monopoly. It was then that many of the "unlimited cap" companies were basically given leave to leach off of Bell in the name of competition.

Bell is far from alone in providing bulk bandwidth in Canada. If the economics are so straightforward, clearly Teksavvy and the like will just run a Cogent or the like to their distribution. If they don't, ask yourself why not.

Ultimately this is a lot of people up in arms because they want their free lunch.

[jacquesm]

Bell owns the lines, it is (or rather, was, I've left Canada 4 years ago) illegal to put lines in by other entities.

> Your complaint is that some rural area has poor service. Is that not the case around the globe?

No.

> I've had high-speed cable service since long before it was available in most urban centers in the US (much less the rest of the world),

Good for you :) I had four bonded 28.8 modems and four landlines giving me crappy bandwidth where a simple baseband modem would have done the job but Bell simply refused to remove the chokes from the lines.

> Here in a suburb of Toronto I've had top-notch, leading-the-bandwidth (15Mbps around the clock) high speed for a low cost for almost a decade.

Toronto is but one very small part of Canada and one of the most populous areas at that.

If you run a monopoly you should provide all your customers with equal access to the system, otherwise you should open up the market and get the hell out of the way.

> I think our situation is quite good, actually.

your situation is quite good.

> The best is the other post where someone talks about it being Soviet-style central control.

That was pretty poorly worded but the author makes a much better case further on. Also, state propped up monopolies were very much a feature of communist countries.

> The humorous aspect is that CRTC is essentially unwinding that central control, put in place back when Bell was the big, untouchable monopoly. It was then that many of the "unlimited cap" companies were basically given leave to leach off of Bell in the name of competition.

They'd gladly put their own infrastructure in to the ground, only they're not allowed to.

Just like you're not allowed to hop across the border, buy a satellite receiver that receives 'free over the air' programming and operate it legally within Canadas borders (because that would deprive the government sanctioned operators of their subscription fees that they can charge you for that same content).

[ergo98]

Your complaint seemed to be entirely based upon the difficulties in getting broadband in a sparsely populated area. And then some big telco coming in to try to undermine it. We've seen the same story again and again, over the globe. There is nothing unique to Canada in that.

As to Bell being a monopoly, that's a bit laughable of a concept now. I haven't used any Bell services for personal use in well over a decade, despite being in the center of Bell territory.

As to Canada's situation, it regularly ranks in the top tier of broadband penetration and broadband speeds. It sounds like you're the one using your anecdote inappropriately, because actual metrics refute you.

They'd gladly put their own infrastructure in to the ground, only they're not allowed to.

You're conflating issues. Because of the in-the-ground angle, companies are allowed to terminate twisted-pairs at the switching station, providing their own voice or data services. We recently hooked up a business backup high-speed ADSL line, the line provided by Bell, with the data provided by Cogent. Our primary data service, by the way, is provided by the electric company who have a distribution network of fiber.

What is changing is if Bogent terminated that line, but instead of providing their own infrastructure they simply leached off of Bell's. That was put in during the "Soviet style" control.

Again, this is all a bunch of people inventing a reality where they can have their free lunch. It is a tiny percentage of people making a loud noise, trying to burn it all down to get their way. I'll happily endure the down-arrows while a rallying mob tries to construct some ridiculous perception of reality.

[jacquesm]

I don't know who keeps modding you down, you certainly are 'adding to the conversation', sorry about that.

> Your complaint seemed to be entirely based upon the difficulties in getting broadband in a sparsely populated area.

No, it is mostly centered around Bell playing dirty. Getting broadband in a sparsely populated area is just an example of how they use their resources. Using the legal system to put the squeeze on other ISPs is another.

> And then some big telco coming in to try to undermine it.

If the big telco is the only game in town then that changes matters considerably.

> We've seen the same story again and again, over the globe. There is nothing unique to Canada in that.

I live in a rural European area right now, where I live I can choose from > 10 broadband providers with packages up to 20 Mbit/sec.

> As to Bell being a monopoly, that's a bit laughable of a concept now.

Bell still has an effective monopoly on infrastructure and that is what this article is about, charges that Bell levies on ISPs that are more or less forced to do business with Bell, we're not talking about a consumer monopoly, even though they still profit plenty from their former monopoly in that field.

> As to Canada's situation, it regularly ranks in the top tier of broadband penetration and broadband speeds.

The situation here is somewhat skewed because a large amount of the Canadian population lives in a very small total area of the country.

> It sounds like you're the one using your anecdote inappropriately, because actual metrics refute you.

No, it just underscores the issue. For the record, I've also lived in Toronto (King Street) and it is the contrast between the two that strikes me as placing the rural areas at a deliberate disadvantage. If anything Bell should do everything in its power to level the playing field given the monetary advantages they've been allowed to have.

> You're conflating issues. Because of the in-the-ground angle, companies are allowed to terminate twisted-pairs at the switching station, providing their own voice or data services. We recently hooked up a backup high-speed ADSL line, the line provided by Bell, with the data provided by Cogent. There is nothing changing in that.

Exactly. So how much choice did cogent have in using Bell infrastructure in order to reach you?

> What is changing is if Bogent terminated that line, but instead of providing their own infrastructure they simply leached off of Bell's. That was put in during the "Soviet style" control.

They did not 'leach of Bells', they have very little choice. Bell owns the roads, if you want your cars on them you'll have to pay toll.

> Again, this is all a bunch of people inventing a reality where they can have their free lunch.

I really disagree with you there, if they were free to lay their own fiber then that would be one thing but as long as they have no way around Bell they should not be squeezed like this.

[ergo98]

In the Cogent example, Bell is legally required to let Cogent use their loop for a low maintenance cost. That is not what this issue is about, and nothing about that has changed or will change.

The case here is that these small ISPs are not only terminating the loop, they're also using Bell's pipes beyond the termination, with contracts that were enforced when Bell really was a bonafide monopoly. There are actually a lot of competitive options when you're looking for bulk bandwidth, will Bell being a small, small player.

[jacquesm]

> Bell is legally required to let Cogent use their loop for a low maintenance cost.

Yes, that's because they own all the lines and Cogent has no other way to sign you up as a customer in a way that would be worth their while.

> The case here is that these small ISPs are not only terminating the loop, they're also using Bell's pipes beyond the termination, with contracts that were enforced when Bell really was a bonafide monopoly.

So, again, what choice do they have?

> There are actually a lot of competitive options when you're looking for bulk bandwidth, will Bell being a small, small player.

If that were really true don't you think these ISPs would switch to those competitors with their 'competitive options' instead of waging silly lawsuits?

Bandwidth is cheap. So cheap that it's hilarious to see the rates that Bell now charges these ISPs for transit.

Really, Canada just took a giant step backwards in time and you are cheering it on and I can't see what reasons you would have for that other than that you perceive Bell to somehow have a god given right to a chunk of the turnover of each and every bit of data that gets moved in Canada.

It really should not be that way, the sooner it ends the better. Every company that can afford it should be allowed to put in 'last mile' connections, and every company that can afford it should be allowed to use the former monopolists infrastructure at a cost-plus basis (and not a metered basis). That's the only way the situation will ever get to normal.

Canada is hurting it's citizens interests and the interests of Canada as a player in the global economy by putting the population at a disadvantage as compared to other countries.

Have a look at Korea for what's possible.

[ergo98]

So, again, what choice do they have?

Twisted-pair sucks, actually, and Bell's monopoly is on dead technology. We only use it as a backup line in a worst case situation. We actually had a number of options, which is what we used for our primary line.

Though I'm not even sure what your point is.

If that were really true don't you think these ISPs would switch to those competitors with their 'competitive options' instead of waging silly lawsuits?

IT IS TRUE. Accept that as a reality, because it is reality. If bandwidth is as cheap as you claim, they WOULD use those alternatives, now wouldn't they? They have an economic model based upon basically an agreement that was punitively pushed onto Bell because of their monopoly, back when being the big telco made them the top dog.

I'm not cheering on anything but reality. You have ignored or sidestepped every reality I have presented, and keep up with this ridiculous illusion that Bell has any ounce of a provider monopoly in Canada.

[pyre]

  > Here in a suburb of Toronto I've had top-notch,
  > leading-the-bandwidth (15Mbps around the clock) high
  > speed for a low cost for almost a decade.

Toronto is the "New York City" of Canada. Do you look to New York City to be an exact replication of how the entire US looks, works, and functions? This reeks of "Windows never gave me a BSOD therefore all of the people that say they've had a BSOD are lying"-type of argument. Please leave your anecdotes at the door unless you promise to see them for what they really are... anecdotes.

When I was living in Toronto the quality of internet service (at least with Bell) depended very much on the area. In some areas the lines/infrastructure was really crappy and rather than fix it Bell would just blame the end-user (you need to reboot your computer, that's why the bandwidth is so slow) or acts of god (I know that you've been complaining about the bandwidth for months, but it was really caused by that large storm last night. It should be fine now.).

  > Bell is far from alone in providing bulk bandwidth in Canada.

Really? I was under the impression that Bell was just selling access to their last-mile infrastructure and companies like TekSavvy were providing their own peering arrangements for getting the customers to the internet. Would you care to explain to me what the real situation is?

                +------------------------------+
                |         THE INTERNET         |
                +------------------------------+
                        ||         ||
                        ||         ||    <-- Peering arrangements
                        ||         ||
                     +--------+  +----+
                     |TekSavvy|  |Bell|  <-- ISPs
                     +--------+  +----+
                        \\       //
                         \\     //
                          \\   //
                  _        ______      
      Bell-owned |        /  ||  \
  infrastructure |       /   ||   \    <-- last-mile infrastructure
                 |_     /    ||    \
                      +--+  +--+  +--+
                      |  |  |  |  |  |  Residences/Customers
                      +--+  +--+  +--+

It's my understanding that the infrastructure looks like the above diagram. In this case, Bell is not selling bandwidth to the internet to 3rd-party ISPs, they are just selling access to their (government-subsidized) last-mile lines.

[Swannie]

Lets clarify a few things.

The ruling last year: http://www.crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2010/2010-802.htm

The result of consultation on the ruling, and dates for its application: http://crtc.gc.ca/eng/archive/2011/2011-44.htm

This affects the "Gateway Access Services (GAS)" customers. Wholesale Bell customers. (Product details here http://www.wholesale.bell.ca/pdfs/GASDSL.pdf)

And "Third Party Internet Access (TPIA)" customers. Rogers & Shaw Wholesale customers.

The GAS is not local loop unbundling. That is "(ADSL) Access Service" (http://www.bce.ca/en/aboutbce/regulatoryinformation/tarrifs/...)

There are essentially three options for an ISP. Diagrammed below.

PoP = Point of Presence. This is the handover from the access network to the provider network. The equipment found here is often called a BRAS.

    ------------The Internet------------
     |          |          |          |
    ----------Peering Location----------
     |          |          |          |    <-.
    ISP1       ISP2       TekS       BELL     \
     |          |             \    /      <---- Private network.
    PoP1       PoP2            PoP3
     |          |#              |**
  Priv.Fiber LeasedLine        Bell    
     |          |               |**   <---- "Backhaul" "Transmission Network"
  Priv.DSLAM Priv.DSLAM    -Bell DSLAM-
     |~         |~         |          |*  <-- "Local Loop" "Last Mile"
    CPE        CPE      TekSCPE     BellCPE

  * Bell's retail capacity based pricing.
  ** Bell's wholesale capacity based pricing.
  ~ ADSL Access Service
  # Bell does actually lease lambdas on its fiber.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:XDSL_Connectivity_Diagram_...

[pyre]

What is the section between the DSLAM and PoP? Why does Bell need to charge usage-based on that section seeing as the peering itself is not the issue? Some more explanation of that part of the diagram would be much appreciated. :)

[Swannie]

Umm... that's the bit between your local exchange (Central Office) and the nearest Bell exchange (Central Office) to where the ISP actually hosts its equipment. (In the case of the GAS, that equipment is routers that can talk PPP/L2TP, or something close, as I can't find real technical details on GAS). OK, so it is more complicated than this as there are BRAS - broadband remote access/aggregation servers - along the way that collect the DSLAM traffic together into ATM links, and the split out aggregated traffic for the ISPs. (Basically the internal Bell ATM packet network).

This is Bell's transit network. Whilst technically the UBB is on the individuals and not what is transited, it is essentially what is being billed for.

Bell is claiming that it's links on the transit network are being crippled by heavy users. This may actually be true during busy hour. But in reality this shouldn't happen, as Bell can increase the bandwidth of most these relatively cheaply, as most are fiber. There are probably a few 100 that aren't fibered, causing the biggest problem.

But OK. The more I read about this, the clearer it becomes that the problem doesn't really exist at the moment. This is Bell's way of sabotaging the GAS product that it has been forced to sell by the regulator.

I hope this is a move that will force the independents to group together to purchase their own DSLAMS and transit. And then Bell faces much stiffer competition. In the UK, BT is facing real and consistent competition, thanks to our regulator getting tough in the last few years. BT now even have to allow competitors to lease it's ducting to roll their own fiber.

EDIT: I found this: http://www.vaxination.ca/crtc/ADSL_intro.pdf

Which suggests that the only bit that could conceivably have contention, which the wholesale customer does not control, is the connection between the DSLAM and the BAS. From the BAS's to their handoff PoP/CO, they have to pay for these "AHSSPI/AHSSL (Aggregated High-Speed Service Provider Interface/Link)" in 1gbps increments.

[jacquesm]

As far as I know that's an accurate representation of the situation.

[Swannie]

It's not.

[ergo98]

My anecdote was...anecdotal. Nonetheless Canada's broadband deployment rates are in the top quarter of the OECD, and it regularly ranks very well in bandwidth in the same comparisons. Empirically Canada isn't doing so terrible.

Really? I was under the impression that Bell was just selling access to their last-mile infrastructure

Your understanding is wrong. If TekSavvy were just terminating the loop, Bell wouldn't even have the technical ability to do anything to restrict or harm them.

The situation here is that Teksavvy has access to bulk wholesale Nexxia (Bell's backbone) rates that were forced upon Bell by the CRTC. Again, this was an agreement that was established when Bell was overwhelmingly dominant in certain areas of Canada. If those wholesale rates are "fair", however, then clearly Teksavvy can just arrange with another provider to handle that service. The reason they can't, of course, is that the rates they were paying were essentially monopoly subsidized.

[pyre]

Is that really the reason why? I find it also possible that they haven't been able to setup the infrastructure to peer with other providers yet, as it seems they were only given 90 days before this went into affect. I don't know what sort of timeline is reasonable for them to be able to hook-up with other providers as I've never worked on that sort of infrastructure before.

[ergo98]

Yeah, that's the reason why. Just to be clear, Bell has been making their intentions clear for a long, long time. They were packet shaping "reseller" connectivity as long as two years ago.

There ARE DSL providers that locate hardware in Bell switching centers and don't use the Nexxia network. Primus is an example. Funny thing about Primus is that they, too, are implementing UBB, but it isn't because of Bell: It's because they don't want the ultra high throughput users that are being punted from TekSavvy from all migrating to their network.