[TeMPOraL]

A good point, and cars are a perfect example. Older cars tend to be less efficient than new ones, but there was a point in time not too long ago when you could repair anything in your car with a welder, some elbow grease, and a free afternoon. New cars of today tend to require expensive somewhat expensive specialists to fix, and I've been hearing that the future is in cars that refuse to start unless the ECU can cryptographically verify that each and every part is authentic - that's like an immune system of sorts, except one that isn't protecting your car, but the manufacturer's ability to take your money. Unfortunately, it seems that more and more complex products are heading this way.

[microcolonel]

> New cars of today tend to require expensive somewhat expensive specialists to fix

Not for any practical reason. The tolerances on some parts are tighter, but in general anyone who takes the same interest that the average man took in the '80s can repair the vast majority of a current vehicle, safely, as long as they're not deliberately impeded by a computer.

[TeMPOraL]

> as long as they're not deliberately impeded by a computer

But I meant exactly that - at least from the stories I hear (I don't own a new enough car), half of the breakage in modern cars seems to require interfacing with the computer to at least clear an error flag. I once helped a guy with a software project, and learned that he's operating a workshop fixing a specific car brand. He showed me the device he uses to interface with the computer, and explained to me how the official software costs such ridiculous amounts of money that he instead hired some Chinese company that would remote-connect to his laptop and do some trickery to keep the software work without the license. Neither official nor the "unofficial" route seems to me to be accessible to a regular car owner.

[lsc]

>half of the breakage in modern cars seems to require interfacing with the computer to at least clear an error flag.

Yes, you need an odbII tool. they are not expensive by the standards of decent '80s automotive tools (the cost of 'minimum viable analog tools' has dropped precipitously during my lifetime. )

The cheapest ODBII tools are bluetooth, and there is a cornucopia of apps to interface with them in the app store. You can get one that is easier to use that doesn't require a phone for $100 that will work for most problems on most cars.

(Of course, the more expensive ODBII tools are better, I'm given to understand, and allow you to do more, but you can do a lot with the cheap junk; and resetting the codes is generally the most basic functionality; unless you've got a fancy car, even the cheapest one that fits your brand should work for that. )

Having come of age at a time when I was driving and repairing (older) carberuated vehicles, I personally think that fixing a carb is like a thousand times harder than interfacing with the ODB system. Modern injection systems just solve so many problems without trying.

My experience of the modern diagnostic systems is that it's actually way easier. The scan tool saves you so much time and effort vs. the old manuals "go to page 5 if it doesn't X, 32 if it does" A lot of the time, the cheap scan tool gives you a code and description; you punch that into a search engine and you get a goddamn video of someone doing the repair. It's amazing compared to screwing around with an exploded parts diagram. (I mean, from the perspective of someone who isn't really a car guy) - I mean, there's always problems the scantool doesn't catch, but... I mean, I'm talking about all this from a shadetree perspective, there have always been a lot of automotive problems I couldn't fix, just 'cause I'm not an automotive specialist.

[nradov]

An ODBII is helpful for basic stuff but it doesn't get you very far with modern cars. Most manufacturers now have specialized proprietary scanners which are needed for any complex repairs, especially for anything electronic. Those scanners are extremely expensive and sometimes only sold to authorized service centers.

[fragmede]

Are these manufacturers called BMW, by any chance? They sell this authorized "computer module" replacement part for $400. But if you take it apart, there's a 50 cent fuse inside that was blown. Replacing the fuse does no good without access to the proprietor BMW software, because the module will refuse to work after the fuse is replaced until it is reset using their software. Which means you have to pay for a whole new module. However not all manufacturers are like that. After I change the oil on my Honda, there's a silly little dance to reset the oil life indicator, but nothing too crazy. The Toyota Corolla is a favorite for self-driving car enthusiasts due to the hackability of its lane-guidance system into something fuller. I'm also disappointed in some of the directions the future has taken us (it's frustrating to me how hard it is the replace user-servicable parts inside a lot of laptops, eg Apple), but not all manufacturers are the same and talking about the situation as if they are is too abstract to be useful, say, when looking for your next car.

[dsfyu404ed]

If you don't want to do complex diagnostics that kind of stuff is unnecessary for the overwhelming majority of repairs on the overwhelming majority of vehicles.

I think you're bother over estimating the complexity of modern vehicles and under estimating the simplicity of old ones. Back in the carburetor days people were complaining about vacuum line spaghetti to run the emissions system. People always complain about new stuff.

The reason new stuff is harder for DIYers to work on is because there isn't yet a body of knowledge on how to work on them without all the stuff a shop had.

[porknubbins]

As someone who had only ever done oil/battery change level auto work this was surprisingly exactly my experience replacing a bad knock sensor in my truck. OBD tells you the problem (a sensor is out of voltage range) and youtube tells you how to fix it step by step. At one point my family saw the intake manifold on the floor and thought the car was never going to run again, but its really just plugging or unplugging things from a big computer now. If you can write software you can do (most) auto work.