[dimino]

I usually post from diminoten, but moved to this account to try and figure out why I was getting downvoted instantly nearly every time I commented, and why I was losing the same karma as votable posts that I had in the span of seconds sometimes.

HN is not built to handle dissent. Privileges are based on votes, there are minimal to no vote protection tools in place, the guidelines are used as cudgels to beat people who disagree with the popular view, and the moderator (there's more or less only one, dang) prefers to smokescreen and gaslight anyone he doesn't like with generic comments that don't follow the very guidelines he's trying to enforce. Just look at his comment history; it's full of "This doesn't follow guidelines" without any elaboration, and when he does elaborate, it's an incredibly cynical and not-generous interpretation of the comment he's saying isn't acceptable, which is itself a violation of the HN guidelines, specifically the one about addressing the best form of an argument.

Most of the problem is the fact that dang is the primary active moderator on HN. If others were to take over, and he were to be removed or retire, HN would become substantially better, possibly overnight.

Dang needs to be removed for this site to grow and improve. People think HN is growing; it is not. The quality people who used to post here are more or less gone, and HN isn't attracting new quality posters to fill their shoes, precisely because dang moderates very poorly, which pushes away prospective high value posters.

The reality is, it's high time for a replacement to HN.

[DoreenMichele]

This is just an FYI that you can take under advisement if you so choose:

Part of the reason you are getting so very much negative attention in this specific discussion is because your comment complaining about the very site you are posting on was the very first comment posted.

This actively interferes with constructive discussion of the article posted as everyone replies to you and your personal complaints instead of engaging with the content of the article. (The term for it is thread shitting. As the author of the piece, I wasn't real happy to see it.)

You also keep focusing on the negative and on points of disagreement and will not drop it.

I'm sympathetic to your frustration, but there are pieces of this that only you can change. I'm aware you are likely to feel I'm "blaming the victim" rather than trying to empower you. My personal default is to wonder what I can do differently on my end to get better outcomes because I'm typically the piece of the equation I have the most control over, regardless of "who is to blame." I'm generally satisfied with that approach.

Last, I will note that my advice to not automatically assume that this one person is behaving badly doesn't translate to "there is no point at which a mod should ever hold an individual accountable for their piece of the puzzle."

That doesn't work. You don't get a free pass for your behavior for all eternity because you're -- for example -- a woman posting in an overwhelmingly male space.

If I thought being a woman posting on HN meant I can do anything at all that I feel like doing and then blame negative reactions on sexism, I would have been banned ages ago -- and rightly so. Saying that it's not okay for the entire group to behave badly towards one individual and then blame their victim for their own choices absolutely doesn't mean the needs of one individual should trump the needs of the entire community. A moderator's job is to find ways to try to serve both needs at the same time, which is a balancing act.

Please note that I waited to say anything to you until after the piece dropped off the front page in hopes of having fewer eyes on my comment, among other things. I thought about various possible tactics and concluded that replying late was probably the least worst option available to me.

[dimino]

Dang doesn't understand any of what you said, and makes zero attempt at improving, neither himself nor the site at large.

I am certainly not guiltless, but consider the fact that I have none of these problems anywhere else I interact with others. Why is it just on HN that I run into these struggles? I am in lots of communities through my daily interactions, and I successfully navigate those, so what's special about HN, other than dang and the site's mechanics?

This place cannot handle dissent. That's literally the definition of a toxic environment, and dang does nothing to create safety for people who might not agree with the mainstream view. That's on him.

[YeGoblynQueenne]

>> Why is it just on HN that I run into these struggles

It's because HN is, actually, a very unique internet message board. It is unique in that it takes its own guidelines very seriously and enforces them very actively. Compared to every single other internet message board I've been on (and I've been around the block a few times, like they say) flamewars are prevented effectively and personal attacks are simply not tolerated.

For me, that's what keeps me combing back for more. HN is, well, a safe place, where I can disagree with others, very strongly, without risking that a thread will degenerate into put-downs and name-calling. This is in stark contrast to other message boards where there seems to be a genuine belief that "winning" a thread is some kind of achievement worthy of praise and self-respect.

So to be honest, if you're struggling to adjust to HN but you're feeling fine on other message boards then I'm inclined to believe that, on the balance of probabilities, it's because you bring with you behaviours and ways of communicating that you've learned on other message boards that are incompatible with HN, and that you are unwilling to change.

P.S. :%s/combing back/coming back/g. But it's a funny one, so I'm leaving it like that.

[dimino]

A) I've been on HN for 10 years, I'm not "coming from" or "struggling to adjust" anywhere and B) I didn't mean "other message boards" I meant literally every other community I belong to, both professionally and personally. Online and offline.

HN isn't special, dang is the problem, specifically dang. He needs to go. If he goes, I can thrive just fine. During the times he leaves me alone I thrive in here. When he attacks me, that's when I struggle.

This addiction to HN being a special place is complete and utter nonsense, and if that's the koolaid you're drinking, we have little to say to one another.

[1000units]

I've been banned on most forums I've frequented for attracting the petty ire of moderators (these are usually low-status, unpaid volunteers starved for power and meaning). I'm opinionated and provocative, but I always honor the spirit of the law wherever I choose to be, and dang seems to appreciate that despite probably not liking me as a person. For that I say he's an exceptionally good moderator, but there is certainly a demographic problem on HN that I expect is unfixable and outside management's control.

edit: I just looked briefly at the recent threads in your comment history and had to laugh at "I'm afraid I don't really follow what you've written here." And I see your reply here is flagged-and-killed. I continue to not deny any of your complaints specifically.

[DoreenMichele]

A. I'm a fan of both how HN works and the moderating staff. (I don't wear that on my sleeve more for reasons covered in the post under discussion: Public praise frequently goes weird places.) So I'm absolutely not sympathetic to your conclusion here.

B. If you think it's absolutely not you and dang and HN are simply broken because everyone else likes you just fine, the logical solution is to just leave. I've basically done that numerous times over the years -- left a forum that just didn't work for me personally -- and I've generally not been all blamey about it. In most cases, I leave quietly and don't run around trash talking them afterwards. I don't expect every single forum to be a good fit for me personally.

C. If you decide you value something about HN enough to keep coming back in spite of the problems you are experiencing, there are some best practices for trying to make that work. Here are a few:

1. Try to understand why other people do what they do in a sympathetic manner. This includes dang.

2. Try to focus on what you can do differently more than on what you wish others would do differently.

3. Try to put some of your negative feelings down and stop making your baggage about the site a large part of your focus when engaging in discussion here. It just keeps the problem alive unnecessarily.

D. I don't really care to engage you further here. I decided replying late was the least worst answer in part because not replying at all can come across as "giving someone the cold shoulder" and can add to their problems, if only inadvertently.

But the bane of my personal existence is people who latch onto me personally and act like they think I'm personally required to meet their emotional needs, magically fix their problem that I have no power to fix, be endlessly kind to them while they are ugly to me and so forth. Choosing to respond in hopes that it might help you does not make me personally responsible for your feelings and your problems for all eternity.

Edit: in the interest of avoiding temptation to reply to you again, please note that my introduction to you was you thread shitting my post which is an article I personally wrote. Yet you clearly seem to think you never do anything wrong and it's everyone else here and also seem to think I should care greatly about your feelings and your needs and your problems while you care absolutely not at all about mine.

That's a big fat Nope.

[dimino]

You've completely misunderstood my goals in talking to you. This is a public forum, and I'm making a case for why I think the people who read what I write should believe what I'm arguing. This isn't about you, or me, it's about convincing others that the viewpoint I hold is a valid one.

Your opinion of me, your ability to help/not help me, and all the other interpersonal things you're bringing into this are just your baggage. I thought you wrote a great article that had a few specific passages I felt dang should in particular read, and I called that out publicly. If that's "thread shitting", I think maybe you need to re-evaluate the kind of personal relationship you have with people who read your writing.

I think your edit here is an emotional one, and I'm not really going to address it further beyond pointing out in the very comment you're replying to I take some responsibility for my role in how I'm treated here.

[de_watcher]

First rule of the downvotes: "Never talk about the downvotes".

[humanrebar]

Seems in bounds for a thread about moderation.

[rutenspitz]

And second-last of the guidelines.