[crustacean]

This is such a good point. Take SQL. It has survived because it is well designed, and changes so little and so slowly, and it’s obvious what SQL is and isn’t meant for. Amateur programmers can port SQL queries between database systems semi-painlessly. In the right environment a query can survive with small edits for YEARS.

Who wants to break old SQL? Nobody.

[skybrian]

That's something of an illusion. The flaws in SQL often aren't noticed because you usually pick one database vendor and stick with them. There are plenty of differences between vendors, but you don't usually have to support them at the same time, and you don't notice for simple cases.

But changing database vendors for a company can be a big deal, as bad as going from Python 2 to 3.

[just_myles]

This is true. But, I think he means syntactically you can make jumps from one dbms to another without much of a fuss. Obviously there are non-language features but, that is not what is being discussed here.

[setr]

That's mostly a result of databases (kinda) converging, SQL being a declarative language and it primarily being a wrapper around relational algebra, with a bunch of flags. And of course, it's a very direct interface to the RDBMS, and you're just migrating between systems that try very hard to have the same interface.

As a language however, it's a whole lot of nonsense. Extremely inconsistent syntax, stuffing a trinary logic into a boolean system, a standard that gets extended arbitrarily, and even the tooling ecosystem is a fair bit pathetic (the lack of formatters particularly annoy me; everyone tries to support SQLs generally, and end up missing every extended feature.. if it's not a simple select query/ddl, you're not getting a decent format output)

And it most certainly is a whole lot of fuss to migrate unless your database is tiny, or you didn't actually utilize the DB except as a dumb datastore (eg you relied solely on your ORM + indexes); there's a reason no good translator exists, and those that exist only support a very limited subset of any particular SQL variant, despite programming languages having a whole array of transpilers; it's simply not at all a simple language, and the variants only superficially look the same.

[just_myles]

"As a language however, it's a whole lot of nonsense. Extremely inconsistent syntax, stuffing a trinary logic into a boolean system, a standard that gets extended arbitrarily, and even the tooling ecosystem is a fair bit pathetic (the lack of formatters particularly annoy me; everyone tries to support SQLs generally, and end up missing every extended feature.. if it's not a simple select query/ddl, you're not getting a decent format output)"

Would love to see your point in action. For me personally, speaking strictly writing simple scripts, they pretty much translate fairly well. Regarding formatting, are you referring to the output?

[wvenable]

Dealing with Unicode in SQL has long been a backwards-compatibility nightmare.

[just_myles]

In all fairness, dealing with unicode in general has been a pain point for me.

[marcus_holmes]

> Who wants to break old SQL? Nobody.

Every couple of months there's a new startup / dev site that says "SQL is broken/old/bad, so we reinvented it!". They all sink without trace, but there's a cohort who agrees with them.

[setr]

The problem I think is they typically try to go ahead and reinvent the entire RDBMS as well.

It's not clear to me why postgres hasn't simply grown a whole array of frontends..

[marcus_holmes]

Agree totally. I had to climb the painful learning curve of psql because none of the front ends worked the way I wanted for some reason or another. Of course, having learned psql, I'm now scathing of anyone wanting a front end... hmm... maybe that's why ;)

[setr]

I was actually thinking about the lack of SQL alternatives using the postgres engine; for example, why is datalog not simply available as an extension? Or MySQL syntax? PG implements a wide array of alternatives to PL/pgSQL (including standard programming languages eg python), but for whatever reason these SQL-alts never seem to consider being layered on top of the postgres engine.

However, the lack of GUI frontends is also really weird. I don't see why it'd be harder to support than any other DB, and afaik pg has gotten fairly popular..

[marcus_holmes]

true, why isn't there a MongoDb alternative that just wraps jsonb on Postgres?