[braythwayt]

What do you mean by, "no payoff?"

Are you aware that winning is itself a payoff for certain people? And they want to win at everything, at every level?

You may not sympathize with these people, or agree with them, but they are not difficult to understand. In fact, they are easy to understand.

When people ask me why there is doping in masters bicycle racing, I quote: "Why are University Politics so vicious? Because the stakes are so small."

People's desire to "win," and the lengths they will go to "win," are not tied to economic or power rewards.

[dman]

I think the university politics part is different because there is at least some "power" or "influence" that you get to field no matter how small. I look at individual sports like running / cycling in an amateur setting as a pure outlet for self improvement. If the only person who is looking at my time is me, then whom am I really cheating by improving it using steroids?

[braythwayt]

"I look at individual sports like running / cycling in an amateur setting as a pure outlet for self improvement."

Well, naturally if you look at it like that, then why cheat except possibly because you are curious about how far you can take your body with assistance?

But we are not the ones cheating, and the people who cheat do not look at amateur sports they way we do. To them, there is a top dog in everything, And it's meaningful to them to be the top dog.

No matter how small the pond, there's always somebody who cares very deeply about being the biggest fish.

[dman]

Thanks for explaining patiently.