[mdorazio]

Is it just me or does it seem like we're now one step closer to turning people into companies with shares that can be bought and sold? It feels like a small step from ISAs for education funding to ISAs for all kinds of funding instead of traditional loan agreements and at that point you might as well sell shares of yourself to the highest bidder so they can trade your future income on a secondary market. (Note this is reminiscent of some aspects of the novel The Unincorporated Man).

[pcmaffey]

Which leads us back closer to the ugly reality of people owning other people. ISA used to stand for Indentured Servitude Agreement.

(Not saying Incoming Sharing Agreements's are bad, we just have to be careful...)

[yowlingcat]

I don't disagree with you, but I'll note that the non-dischargeable terms of medical and student loan debt in the USA essentially do that already, with the added caveat of not even incentivizing the note holder to get the borrower on their feet. Is this no better than that? I think it's moving in the right direction. It's capped, and while there's still the potential structural issue of middleman taking an unfairly sized cut, the incentive structure of "we don't make money unless our education helps you do so" seems like an order of magnitude better than the alternative.

[novok]

How is medical debt not dischargeable in bankruptcy?

[nrb]

It is, and I think it’s the chief cause of bankruptcy in the US.

[throwaway_law]

>I don't disagree with you, but I'll note that the non-dischargeable terms of medical and student loan debt in the USA essentially do that already

As a preliminary matter this is false...student loans are dischargable in bankruptcy, they are just treated differently than other debt. However, there is a reason everyone thinks student loans aren't dischargable and the myth persists...

>the incentive structure of "we don't make money unless our education helps you do so" seems like an order of magnitude better than the alternative.

Not when the real alternative is student loan forgiveness and free tuition moving forward. The issue is framing the problem as student loans for life or a financier owning a % of your labor for life, when there are other models.

[pmiller2]

Regarding student loans, yes, you are technically correct that they are dischargable in bankruptcy. However, the standard for federal student loans is that the borrower must be in a situation where there’s literally no hope of ever paying them back in order to qualify. This makes them _de facto_ nondischargable.

Private loans, IIRC, are dischargable with a lower standard, but it escapes me what the standard actually is.

[throwaway_law]

>This makes them _de facto_ nondischargable.

I have gotten student loans ($100k+) discharged for clients.

My experience is most people who say student loans are not dischargable have never gone through bankruptcy and have no idea what the process is to discharge regular debts nor student loans. This is true of even some lawyers, who are more than happy to take your fee, but don't know what they are actually doing.

[yowlingcat]

Student loan forgiveness would be great, as would be free tuition, but do you mean on a federal level? I'd love to see such a policy come to fruition.

[throwaway_law]

I don't want to make it about politics or a politician, but you can search for their campaign platform proposal for additional details. As far as I know there is only one candidate running on this platform of student loan forgiveness, so it should come up quickly in a search.

[yowlingcat]

It's great to have a presidential candidate that is running on this platform (and I think I know which one you're talking about), but I'm more interested in whether the broad coalition in congress exists, or whether it's being formed. There are a few members of congress I can think of, but not in remotely the size necessary to pull this off.

[pmiller2]

Vote for Bernie if you want these things to happen. We can literally discharge all existing student debt by rolling back Trump’s ridiculous tax cuts for the wealthy. Tuition can be funded the same way going forward.

[vanniv]

Fortunately, indentured servitude was outlawed, along with slavery, by the passage of the 13th amendment.

Of course, the constitution is only as powerful as we are willing to follow it -- but I'm pretty comfortable that the slope between people agreeing to pool their income voluntarily and people being forced into servitude isn't all that slippery.

[brighton36]

Finally someone said it. Thank you.

[DoreenMichele]

This article doesn't really go into it, but the impetus from what I gather is to try to find a viable alternative to the current system that balances practical realities with various ideals or goals.

Historically, college was an upper class pursuit because the upper classes could afford it. You introduce student loans and then instruments to make them more easily accessible to anyone, you end up with the current debacle.

Part of the cause of the current debacle is the fact that it takes more than the right degree to establish a sufficient income to make traditional student loans make sense. You also need job hunting skills, availability of good paying jobs and a personal situation conducive to working full-time. This means no health crises, unexpected pregnancies or other family problems imposing on your time.

What we've learned is that the bet involved in the current student loan process is a bet that still leaves a lot of lower class people in a situation where college is a bad bet that may just deepen their financial problems and de facto keep them trapped in poverty.

I don't know if this solution is the right solution, but I do think the goals and ideas driving these experiments are healthy impetuses. We need to continue to try to find societal patterns and practices that help lower income people have the opportunity to rise. It's better for society overall.

The tendency for the principle of "them that has, gets" to deepen class divides is one that needs constant push back. Otherwise, it foments bloody revolution.

We already have memes like "Eat the rich" which point to deep resentment and bitterness of the "peasant" classes. You would have to be a fool to think that's not anything to be concerned about.

[gadders]

Bowie Bonds for all:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrity_bond

[bilbo0s]

Be careful what you wish for.

Shares of this nature would be regulated as securities. Which would bring a great many uncomfortable requirements to the table.

Just as a for instance, I'll just point out that corporations have Boards of Directors and shareholder meetings. Both of which potentially determine and direct any future actions the corporation is allowed to take.

[thelock85]

I think this is how the social media influencer market works.

[tathougies]

Perhaps it is. However, interestingly to note, most religions, like traditional Christianity and Islam, would actually be okay with an income sharing system (especially if the share was redeemable and payments set up to accomplish this) as opposed to an interest based system. It is unclear that an income sharing system is any morally worse than an interest bearing one, and there are reasons to think it is better.

[danenania]

Given that interest-bearing loans eventually convert to ISAs if they aren't paid (through wage garnishment), it seems hard to argue that they aren't strictly worse for the borrower.

[tathougies]

ISAs are not wage garnishment though. My ISA would be tied solely to the amount you're making and a non-interest-bearing predetermined price. Wage garnishment is a form of interest sharing, sure, but the underlying liability is growing at an exponential rate, which is what would be wrong.