[computerex]

Nationalism has always been high in China ever since the CCP took control. Not being a nationalist would be a good way to suddenly disappear off the face of the Earth.

China has always had double standards. They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there. The only thing that has changed is that the U.S has started pushing back somewhat as of late, but things are still currently in favor of China.

When China makes draconian laws like this: https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurit...

Is it really a surprise that companies that care about their customer privacy would be hesitant in dealing with China? Is it inconceivable that data breaches and unauthorized access of data/systems could happen through Chinese employees? These are some of the things you have to think about.

Maybe the Chinese government should look at the year (2019) and realize that personal liberties, sovereignty and privacy are important to the "west". If China is going to disrespect our important values, than what you are seeing in this Gitlab discussion is bound to take place for companies that are sensitive about protecting their customers.

[_wmhc]

>realize that personal liberties, sovereignty and privacy are important to the "west"

I think that Snowden showed us that this is not actually true. Things like National Security letters and the PATRIOT act make the US to me, as a European, seem very hypocritical right now.

[computerex]

There was a huge backlash against the government after Snowden. And Snowden was an American who leaked classified government information for the good of the country. Our perception of Snowden is generally very positive. If what you are saying is right, this wouldn't be the case. You don't see many Chinese whistleblowers leaking the most classified information to the vast public, for example.

The patriot act was passed after 9/11 where the people were hurt and scared. There is backlast against the Patriot act too. Besides PRISM was a highly classified program because the people wouldn't be okay with that type of surveillance here in the U.S where the expectation of privacy isn't even a thing in China.

They are two totally different worlds.

[Quarrelsome]

yes but where does Snowden now live?

You can't deny the hypocrisy here. While our citizens might support him they don't to the extent that they can pressure governments enough to allow him to return home.

[computerex]

Pressuring the government into action is hard and requires personal sacrifice. It would be amazing if we had the same vigor and care about our personal liberties as for instance the people of Hong Kong.

[Quarrelsome]

exactly. But if we really held civil liberties as a value we felt strongly about we'd do that, so we do a bit but not that much. :(

[kortilla]

It’s not really hypocrisy if the people who are pro-Snowden are also anti-China. Citizens with opinions aren’t hypocrites because their current government’s policies have flaws.

[bassman9000]

Oh no, Snowden. I guess then all other world powers are equally as shitty as the US.

Search "false equivalence". Use Baidu. Or Yandex.

[imglorp]

Yes, but I think the difference is that CCP is much further down the abuse road than Western governments.

First, they've had neighbor surveilling (snitching on) neighbor to control the people since Mao: it's part of the culture and fully accepted because they can't envision another way. They have a saying [ref needed] "Such a people deserve such a government." Now of course the whole tech stack supports it. We're just getting used to ubiquitous domestic surveillance in the West.

Second, because they've further along, they've used their control of information to abuse their power. Tibet, Tiananmen, organ harvesting, and more lately the Uighur atrocities against people of dissent or race. The West is not there but you can see we're blasting down that road now.

[imglorp]

It seems you can't mention ^ those keywords without the sensitivity brigade downvoting you.

[FussyZeus]

> Things like National Security letters and the PATRIOT act make the US to me, as a European, seem very hypocritical right now.

These are not even remotely comparable. China is an outright police state. Not saying the United States doesn't have a lot of work to do with regards to personal liberty, but the Government here has nothing close to the iron grip control that the CCP has; they may want it, and what Government doesn't, but they don't have it and a ton of our internal legal mechanisms are designed specifically to prevent it.

[elefanten]

Indeed. False equivalence is the oxygen of these discussions.

We should be able to discuss America's governance failures and problem areas without conflating them with horribly regressive models of governance.

[odiroot]

> Nationalism has always been high in China ever since the CCP took control.

Or since the Boxer Rebellion.

Or since before the Opium Wars. And probably even much earlier.

[whoevercares]

Assuming you aren’t native Chinese or don’t have lots of friends in China, you don’t seem to understand what the parent said about nationalism rises. No China’s nationalism WAS NOT this high before, (the parade etc) you saw before is organized and it’s actually quite small considering the scale of China. Common people were normally cynical and only act patriotic at occasions where they really have to. Things are freaking different now with certified news from the US regarding trade war and the fact Trump can’t win the trade war. Normal people this time really become nationalist

[elefanten]

Is there debate about this on the Chinese net? I'm curious because I don't know, but I imagine having a debate where people can genuinely criticize China would be difficult to conduct in the face of censorship and legal risk.

I ask because my experience across the Western net has been seeing lots of debate. This thread is a good example. I only see Chinese netizens appear in huge angry voting brigades, spamming threads with proclamations, denunciations and flimsy claims.

So I genuinely wonder; does vibrant and open debate take place somewhere? How/where could I see what such debates look like?

[akfanta]

> I only see Chinese netizens appear in huge angry voting brigades, spamming threads with proclamations, denunciations and flimsy claims.

You will never see it anywhere on the internet, because from the very beginning your decision has been made. Anything you read will be morphed according to your belief. Anyone pro China on this site is immediately either labeled as brainwashed retards or paid shill. That's why there are no discussions, it's just your echo chamber.

[whoevercares]

Yes it took place somewhere else. Even in tech a good portion of Chineses don’t know HN and other people just use it as “tech news hub” like medium/TechCrunch (tbh that’s my common usage). There would be a language barrier because most of the discussion would be in written Chinese which is quite ambiguous for discussion. The best way might be to interview a few Chinese people but keep in mind the redlines: 1) integrity/definition of China (e.g no sane Chinese would think HongKong is not part of China and some would terminate the conversation directly if you raise some other point. Tibet/Taiwan is more controversial maybe you can discuss). 2)Those “well known” crimes/human rights offense the government committed. Native Chinese doesn’t really trust western media that much and it might be such a meme to them already so it’s likely turning into whataboutsim (which is perfectly ok in Chinese culture, if you are not better by another magnitude don’t comment on me)

[eznoonze]

Nationalism in China is fueled by the Chinese media (i.e. the Chinese government) which control the message. The chinese government control the degree of nationalism in China like they turn the volume knob of a TV. They use it as weapon.

[whoevercares]

I agree to some extent, but that’s not the only reason. When earlier US sanctioned ZTE that almost stopped all IC tech blocked, instead of rising nationalism, the view of the future was very pessimistic inside China. However now common people realized US just use it as a leverage and it appears US can’t even make it happen. With multiple US retreats from the trade war, Chinese people are never been more confident in history

[hungryhobo]

Complains about double standards in western media,points to double standards in Chinese media.

Whataboutism?

[DiogenesKynikos]

> They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there.

That's not evidenced by the massive presence of US companies in China. American companies do vastly more business in China than vice versa. Whenever I see these sorts of claims, I ask what specific restrictions or hurdles are being discussed.

[computerex]

The U.S is a much bigger economy than China and that's one of the reasons why you see penetration from U.S companies in China. Just because there are U.S companies in China doesn't mean that what I said about the Chinese government making it hell to do business there is false. Your argument is not logically sound.

But as to your point, some of the things that make it difficult for western countries to do business there is the great firewall, draconian privacy laws https://www.chinalawblog.com/2019/09/chinas-new-cybersecurit...

and subsidies (both monetary and policy) from the Chinese government that make it almost impossible for foreign companies to compete against domestic companies.

[abduhl]

China’s economy is “much” smaller than the US by what metric? China and the USA are the top two economies by any measure (GDP, exports, imports, etc.) with both countries switching places as 1 or 2 depending on the metric.

[computerex]

By the GDP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi...

[abduhl]

For a counter example of GDP using Purchasing Power Parity where China is "much" bigger under this metric: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)

[computerex]

The difference between China/US in nominal GDP is much much greater than the difference in PPP. Secondly China is a known currency manipulator so I am inclined to pay less heed to the PPP. Finally the GDP per capita of China is absolutely dismal. Vast majority of the people there are not doing well and it's not a prosperous country. It's a third world country with vast majority of its citizens in poverty.

[DiogenesKynikos]

> subsidies (both monetary and policy) from the Chinese government that make it almost impossible for foreign companies to compete against domestic companies.

You keep saying this sort of thing, but yet, all sorts of foreign companies do booming business in China. The likes of Starbucks, KFC, Volkswagen, Intel, Boeing and Airbus absolutely dominate their respective markets in China. For a long time, Apple was crushing it in China (until Chinese consumers decided the quality/price ratio was too low).

> But as to your point, some of the things that make it difficult for western countries to do business there is the great firewall, draconian privacy laws

The privacy laws you're citing were only just passed about a month ago. They can't have been a hindrance before. The Great Firewall affects every business in China, both foreign and Chinese.

> Just because there are U.S companies in China

It's not just that there are a few US businesses here or there in China. Foreign businesses have an enormous presence in China. It's the most important single market in the world for a very large number of American and European businesses. If that's what business "hell" looks like, I can only imagine how great heaven is.

> The U.S is a much bigger economy than China and that's one of the reasons why you see penetration from U.S companies in China.

It depends on how you measure the size of an economy. In purchasing power parity units, the Chinese economy is larger than the American economy. Going by the exchange rate, it's smaller. The question of which economy is larger is actually ill-defined.

However, the reason why there's greater penetration of American companies in China than vice versa is that the US economy is more developed. There are simply many more leading companies in many sectors in the US. In the late 1970s, China began courting foreign investment, which meant courting foreign companies. Far from making life "hell" for those companies, the Chinese government tried to give them attractive conditions. Many foreign companies invested large sums in China, and made enormous profits out of those investments.

Now, for the first time, Western companies are facing peer competitors from within China, and you suddenly hear cries of how China is taking advantage of everyone. The crazy thing is how all perspective is lost. The massive presence of foreign companies in the Chinese market and the massive exploitation of cheap Chinese labor by foreign corporations are forgotten, and all we hear about are how it's supposedly impossible to do business in China.

[drak0n1c]

I tried to buy my $2.50 Old Spice deodorant in Shanghai. The price tag when translated to dollars was over $8.

If you are ever in China, go into a grocery store and look at the aisles. The main reason why American products are priced at 200%-300% the competition is because of tariffs. Tariffs designed to make ordinary middle class American products only affordable by rich elites. It's a very effective cap on market share.

[akfanta]

> I tried to buy my $2.50 Old Spice deodorant in Shanghai. The price tag when translated to dollars was over $8.

This particular case is likely because the usage of deodorant is not a thing in China. The majority of East Asia doesn't have the body odor issue. It's a gene thing.

[DiogenesKynikos]

I have no idea why Old Spice is expensive in Shanghai, but 200-300% tariffs are not the norm in China. The mean tariff is under 4%, according to the World Bank. I have noticed, however, that many people in China people hold foreign brands in high regard, and are willing to pay a premium for them.

1. https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/TM.TAX.MRCH.WM.AR.ZS?lo...

[rqs]

> China has always had double standards. They make it hell for U.S companies to do business there

Here we go. "CCP is bad and China is bad, so every Chinese is bad". This kind of logic is not very healthy, it just like saying "Google(Or insert any company here) is bad, let's punish their employees", it will hurt those employees (way) more than it hurt Google.

Put the story into context, if Chinese engineers cannot find a job oversea, they will probably go back to China and contribute to a Chinese company that operate under CCP's rule. Will that be a good thing for you eventually?

I bet CCP is also counting on the rising nationalism in the US as well, to drive Chinese engineers back home with their valuable knowledge.

[celeritascelery]

> I bet CCP is also counting on the rising nationalism in the US as well, to drive Chinese engineers back home

OP even mentioned that moves restricting hiring in China from US will help their Chinese based company.

> CCP is bad and China is bad, so every Chinese is bad

This is a very unfair summarization of the parent comment. They never implied that conclusion. Yes, the CCP is bad; And they control China and the Chinese people. But that does not say anything about the people themselves other then they are subject to the communist rules. It is a resistance to the CCP privacy practices that brings this change.