[mb_72]

Curious as the way I see it it's very often China who is the 'initiator', eg internment of Muslims, stealing of territory in South China sea, debt-trap diplomacy, and so forth. Presuming that you are aware of these occurrences, do you agree with your government's positions and actions, and - if not - what actions, if any, do you take to make it clear your opposition?

The Chinese government is, IMO, massively over sensitive to any outside commentary or criticism, eg: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10-31/china-warns-australia...

[dang]

You took this thread way into flamewar. Please don't do that again. We don't want any flamewars here, and certainly not nationalistic ones.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[arczyx]

>Presuming that you are aware of these occurrences, do you agree with your government's positions and actions, and - if not - what actions, if any, do you take to make it clear your opposition?

I'm not from China and I disagree with the action of the China's government you listed above. However I wonder why this kind of opinion (aka the Chinese should be responsible for their government) is not commonly held against the USA?

The USA had invaded countries based on false pretext, toppling legitimate governments, and supported dictators all around the world. Why then, this "the Chinese are responsible for their authoritarian government" argument was not commonly held against the citizens of the USA, who supposedly live in democracy and therefore better equipped to actually change the situation?

[el_cujo]

Because the USA has an independent media that is very critical of its government while China doesn't (at least not on the scale as the USA's main stream media). I mean maybe if you're a conspiracy theorist you could say it's just controlled opposition or a distraction, but in the context of this argument at least the US media is unafraid to criticize or even just straight up mock the government and it's leaders, that has to count for something compared to China.

[pm90]

Considering the US media completely swallowed the WMD lies and that the most popular news outlet in America is Fox News (WTF) which has all the characteristics of a state run channel... the US media hasn't done a very good job of speaking truth to power.

The current Presidency has put some of these issues in sharper contrast, but the Iraq war was a total failure of the US media to do their job (IMO).

[el_cujo]

I certainly wouldn't call them perfect, but again, being able to criticize the leader (whether that be Trump now with the left-leaning media or Obama previously with the right-leaning media) puts them head and shoulders above what China has. Hell, 50 years ago journalist reporting led to the resignation of the president, can you see anything even remotely close to that happening in China?

[bart_spoon]

> However I wonder why this kind of opinion (aka the Chinese should be responsible for their government) is not commonly held against the USA?

Why do you think it isn't?

[mb_72]

Well, I at least try to be consistent, and do query my USA friends about the current administration and it's actions. Recent political changes in the USA have made it the norm to have similar populist leaders or parties gain strength all around the world, it's actually quite distressing for me to see.

[kortilla]

Why are posts questioning China’s actions met with whataboutism regarding the US? The comment you replied to has nothing to do with the US.

[Nasrudith]

Really aggressors project and victim blame as standard practice to justify themselves and their travesties. This goes back to Rome's war with Carthage and probably well before then.

Nationalists of all stripes get very angry when you point out their nation's crimes. Poland made outright illegal to point out that there were in fact Polish collaborators in the Holocaust for instance. It is true that the country was overwhelmingly the victim and Nazis were responsible but cutting off this self reflection only looks sinister. When 'face' culture is involved it seems to be further. Numerous sister city relationships were ended unilaterally by Japan for acknowledging the "comfort women" - ironically losing far more face internationally. Add in outright totalitarianism under a dictator and criticism is seen as an outright threat.

[duguxu]

Some prequel of the "initiation" https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:%E6%96%B0%E7%96%86%E7...

[Quarrelsome]

why do you think Trump likes to talk about China?

He's more likely to talk about camps in China than he is about the homeless in Los Angeles. One is a problem completely out of his control, another is one he could easily mitigate. You wonder why that is?

[mb_72]

I'm not American, and don't follow what Trump says or doesn't say that closely.

Myself, I do criticise my own government, protest on the streets, and also donate money to causes that work in opposition, mostly, to the current government. I've also made business decisions that involve much less interaction with mainland Chinese businesses and customers precisely because I disagree with the mainland Chinese governments way of doing things. Maybe it's cost me some money, but I sleep better at night.

[varjag]

Trump never brings up human rights issues in China (or elsewhere), so your point is moot.

[Quarrelsome]

My point is that people like to talk smack about stuff elsewhere they can't change to detract people from injustices they CAN impact. Its the same with China, what better way to avoid awkward conversations about Taiwan, Hong Kong or the Uighurs than talk about how "unfair" the West is being?

As a Westerner, while its important to understand about the nasty side of China is somewhat pointless to endlessly focus on it because its not a problem we have the capacity to solve.

There are issues that we can obtain Chinese buy-in on like climate-change (we all live on this planet) so we should focus on things like this where we can work together so we can forge better ties instead of focusing on what we don't like about each other. Lets not do evil-empire all over again.

[EastToWest]

How do you expect a Chinese to respond to this kind of "Have you stopped beating your wife" questions?

Whether some of the view points are valid in the first place (at least the second or third one) is deeply contested to Chinese. If you're just parroting Western media view points without showing at least some understanding of Chinese view points, you will likely not get any genuine answers.

[mb_72]

I've lived in China for some time, and have sources of information other than just 'Western media'. Are you saying the article I linked in, for one example, is not accurate? Are you saying the UN is wrong with their information? I have no doubt the Chinese have a different point of view; they have much less complete information on the subjects I mentioned, and others.

But, yes, of course the point is that the poster likely isn't doing anything as they are partially funded by the Chinese government, and also are benefiting from all the aggressive actions their government is taking inside and outside of China.

[DiogenesKynikos]

It's very disputable whether or not China is "stealing" territory in the South China Sea or engaging in debt-trap diplomacy. The latter accusation is mostly hypothetical at the moment, based on a general fear that Chinese loans for infrastructure investment might in the future be abused to trap poor countries in debt.

More generally, what's the point of raising these accusations? When you speak to an American, do you demand that they apologize for their government's illegal invasion of Iraq (and the ensuing hundreds of thousands of deaths) or support for Sunni radicals in Syria?

[kortilla]

“But America did X” is not a valid argument when discussing what China is doing.

[elefanten]

The South China Sea part really isn't debatable. Absolutely everyone outside China thinks the Line is bullshit.

[DiogenesKynikos]

That's not actually true. Taiwan agrees with China, because China's claims are simply those that successive Chinese governments held throughout the 20th Century. The United States used to agree with China - that is, until China went from being the ROC to the PRC.

As for what China is actively doing to assert these claims, I suggest you look at a map of which countries occupy which islands in the South China Sea. The PRC is not the worst offender there, by a long shot. Nobody's hands are clean in the matter.

[elefanten]

Self-interested motivations (TW) or transitory diplomatic policies aside, I mean that it is plainly a bullshit claim. "We're big and we want it really bad" is not a justifiable standard of resolving resource and territory disputes.

Let's compare island occupation to island-building, island militarization and bullying tactics with vessels. Whatever combination of ways different parties are jostling over trying to de facto claim parts of the Sea, a pretty thorny root of the problem is one actor trying to claim all the marbles.

[Nasrudith]

To be fair they actually have beaten their wife into the hospital several times metaphorically - so it stops being a leading question so much as one which acknowledges the obvious.

Those who aren't outright dissidents seem to have an exceptionalism complex where Chinese X is different so no criticism can apply - combined with Not Invented Here syndrome. From what I have heard from those through VPN tunnels they are accutely aware that they aren't anything special.

[netok]

As a chinese, this kind of comment makes me hate the west even more. I have no control over my government. Zero. 0. Do you understand the concept of 0? Thats the amount of influence I have over any government matter. And you people being racist pos because there is nothing I can do about my gov. Wtf do you want?

[computerex]

No one is criticizing the Chinese people who have zero control over their authoritarian government. The Chinese people are humans just like any other person on Earth, whether from America or Canada or Nigeria or India or anywhere.

When people criticize China, they are almost universally criticizing the Chinese government, because of their double standards, shady practices, lack of respect for individual privacy/sovereignty, ethnic cleansing in xinjiang.

I love the Chinese people, whereas I hate the Chinese government.

[sidibe]

CCP has succeeded in making the Chinese government an important part of Chinese people's identity. I've noticed even open minded Chinese people who have lived abroad for years tend to feel a little like insults on Chinese government are personal.

[mrpopo]

I am sorry that you think like that, but the government is nothing without its people. The moment you start saying there is nothing you can do is the moment you lose. Russian dissidents etc. Chinese middle-class is complacently trading freedom for comfort. American and European middle-class too, for that matter.

[sabas123]

I feel it is really unfair to blame chinese individuals like this, can we blame American's for all of their terrible influences they have had around the world too then?

[_iyig]

There is a difference between blaming someone for the actions of a government over which they have little control, and suggesting that it’s possible to work toward a better system. Nobody blamed the Civil Rights Movement for segregation; though they lived in a time when Jim Crow was law, they did all they could to defeat it.

I’d also suggest there’s a difference between acceptance of bad government action, even if you don’t or can’t actively oppose it, and active defense of such action.

[anoncake]

It's only zero if you exclude actions that are unlikely to work while requiring great sacrifices and/or likely to get you killed. Of course, no one should blame you for not:

- Joining/founding an underground resistance group

- Distributing anti-government propaganda

- Rising through the ranks of the party until you're influential.

- Emigrating (This won't directly influence your government. But losing skilled workers (I assume you are one) harms the economy, making a revolution more likely.

- If that is not possible, being as unproductive as you can get away with.

- Becoming friends with high-ranking officials, then influence them.

- Protesting. You can technically make sure you won't get punished by setting yourself on fire.

> And you people being racist pos because there is nothing I can do about my gov. Wtf do you want?

No one's being racist here. The entity people don't trust is the Chinese government. Governments act through the people they govern so that distrust extends to your potentially involuntary actions (but not to your character). Note that Gitlab doesn't trust employees living in China independently of their ethnicity.

[munmaek]

Who is being racist here?

Criticizing a government apparatus isn’t racist. I don’t know why every single time a westerner criticizes the PRC, they act like we hate all Chinese people.

Nobody here has a problem with Chinese people in general. Hopefully all of us can separate a nation’s people from their government... The problem is with the PRC’s government.

[lentil_soup]

"Nobody here has a problem with Chinese people in general"

The link this whole discussion is about is about banning Chinese people. Not the government, not even people that work for the government, just "Chinese people in general"

[munmaek]

...because of the PRC.

This whole discussion is because of the PRC, and having ties to family members living under the PRC.

[Aunche]

"I'm not against hiring black people, just those who live in areas controlled by gangs or have family members who live in these areas."

[munmaek]

This is an apples to oranges comparison.

The ticket raised on gitlab is specifically about Chinese and Russian nationals, but this would also apply to Australians (they can be compelled, legally, to build backdoors upon request of the government). If I were in charge of a non-trivial company I certainly would not hire an australian national.

This same exact argument would apply for a white person from China who has family or other assets in China, and thus has leverage that can be used against them by the current totalitarian regime.

If the US government enacted a law similar to Australia where we could be compelled to build secret backdoors, then foreign companies probably wouldn't hire an American either.

This really has little to do with race, and everything to do with risk and governments. We would still be discussing a ban on hiring Chinese nationals even if China -weren't- almost completely homogeneous in race; it's basically irrelevant.

[mb_72]

> As a chinese, this kind of comment makes me hate the west even more. I have no control over my government.

That right there is exactly the response your government would want you to have. You already 'hate the west', and now even more because of what I wrote? That seems unreasonable to me, and there was not one racist mention in my comment either.

If 'my' government (in Australia) were pulling these kind of stunts in 'my' name, damn right I would be doing something about it. In fact, I already do something about my community's shabby treatment of the First Australians (financially and lobbying wise).

I feel we, the people, have a responsibility to ourselves and other humans, irrespective of country of origin, culture or background, to resist and oppose transgressions by the governments who represent us.

[dang]

Please don't take HN threads further into political and nationalistic flamewar. This sort of rhetoric never leads anywhere interesting.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

[el_cujo]

>I have no control over my government. Zero. 0. Do you understand the concept of 0? Thats the amount of influence I have over any government matter.

Then you should be more pissed off at your own government and screwed up system than the people who are pointing how that the system you live under is screwed up.

[mighty_bander]

I think the question is, how much control do you want over your government? Do you want them doing this stuff? I come from a country with a stronger democracy than the US and governments will fall over stuff like human rights violations, if they don't properly punish the perpetrators.

[_iyig]

>And you people being racist pos

In what way was the parent comment racist?

[jai_]

Why do you feel that Chinese citizens as a whole have no influence of the actions of their government?

[type0]

Feel what!? You need to look up how the structure of the citizen control by the party functions out there, even if you wanted there's no wiggle room for that.